A Response to Jennifer Knapp’s “Coming Out”
by Pastor Bob Botsford

After today’s articles in Christianity Today (click here) http://alturl.com/kccz and ABC NEWS (click here) http://tinyurl.com/y7ehkrp, I prayerfully sat down at my desk in complete sadness and utter disappointment of another missed opportunity for God to be honored through a testimony of life-changing deliverance. Unfortunately, there’s no shock to me saying that most Christians who speak against homosexuality are more motivated by hate than love. And as careful as I preface my remarks, sadly there will still be a crowd who cries “foul” and jump to their own conclusion that I’m a hate filled, homo-phobe, preaching bigot that is forcing my perspective down a tolerant culture’s throat. With all my heart, I’m not.

For the record I love Jennifer Knapp. Eight years ago I had the opportunity to have dinner with her (and her manager) as she was grappling with her departure from Christian music. I have known of her same-sex relationship since then (as have many) and chose to remain vocal only in my prayers on her behalf, until now. I also love my friends and family members who are (or were) involved in same-sex relationships. Say what you will, God knows my heart. This isn’t about hate. This is about love and it’s about caring enough to be honest about the Truth, God’s love, the inerrancy of scripture and sinful compromise.

The truth is, every human being is precious to God. In fact so precious that He sent His only son Jesus to suffer and die on a cross to free us from a life of sin. The truth is that God abhors any form of sexual sin, be it premarital sex, adultery, prostitution, or homosexuality. No pattern of sexual behavior apart from what God has created for us to enjoy is glorifying in His sight. Rather it is sin. Yes, I am well aware there is a suffering that exists among many in the gay community who feel ostracized from the evangelical community, so much so that they remain hidden in their sins for years on end. Yes, it is also true that when they possess the repentant heart of the Prodigal to return home, they should be welcomed back home with opened arms of complete acceptance and love. Yes, this happens often, but unfortunately without much press or fanfare. It’s hate that gets reported over heart change ten to one. However, in the story of the Prodigal, there is a glaring difference; the prodigal repents. He turned from his sin and humbly came home not expecting any semblance of his previous status to be reinstated, and yet received everything back and then some. That is the picture of the power of God’s love and forgiveness. Condoning sin or excusing it within some cultural argument of relevance is the wrong picture. Predicated upon things going well for the Prodigal (irregardless of what he had done) lies the essential and vital issue of his personal heart of repentance. In short he doesn’t justify his sin, nor does he drag his sinful lifestyle home with him. He left it behind with the hog slop, came to his senses, turned from his sins, and was lovingly reinstated back into the arms of his loving father and family.

In twenty-five years of ministry I have encountered countless examples of homosexuals describing to me the deep seated urges and subconscious desires they have battled with their whole lives. Many speak of early age rejection, emotional abuse, sexual violence and abandonment – just to list a few of the damaging experiences that wreak havoc on the formation of one’s identity. But regardless of one’s past, choosing a life path that Scripture specifically calls sin can never be tolerated or accepted as anything other than what scripture declares. Doing so is equivalent to treason. It is outright rebellion against God’s Word and degrades the loving act of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary as an unnecessary waste of time, life and effort.

Honestly I don’t expect the unbelieving world to understand that. How can they when they have yet to experience the redeeming love and forgiveness of our Lord? But when a well known spokesperson of the faith stubbornly chooses to remain in their life of sin, my heart breaks for them and for the diluted witness of the salvation message we are called to deliver to the world. No truly regenerate life can chose to remain motivated by sin rather than by His salvation. And regardless of how beautiful one may sing of the Truth, if they have stopped fighting for the Truth then there really isn’t much to sing about.

No one can deny that we live in a sinful world. But Christ has come to set us free … from Sin! So here are the questions everyone wants answered; Can you be a Christian and sin? Yes. Will God forgive you? Yes. Does He like your sin? No. Does your life glorify Him while you are choosing to sin? No. Does He want you to repent and turn from your sin? Yes. If you say no and stubbornly remain in sin are you in denial of the transformed life and true relationship with the Father that He created you to have? Yes. Do Old Testament laws pertaining to eating shellfish or wearing multiple fabrics equate with homosexuality? No. The New Testament brings a new level of understanding to food and clothing (Acts 10) while still condemning homosexuality (Romans 1).

If anyone we knew was trapped in a burning building (in this instance a burning building of self-destructive behavior) we would fault any onlookers who if given the chance could have called out in an attempt to save them, but just numbly looked on. We should implore them to get out while there’s still time. So I say in love, Jen get out.

562 Responses
  • Well said Pastor Bob, start to finish… well said.

  • Thanks Ron.

  • Tommy O’Keefe

    Thanks Bob, great word. Balanced, loving and truthful.

  • Right on Bobby.

  • That was well written, Bob, and full of love. We must continue to uphold God’s truth, but reach out in real love.

  • Bob, thanks for the thoughtful and biblically balanced remarks. It’s so hard for so many of us… those of us who know that the word of God calls all sin sin and calls us to be ministers of reconciliation to all sinners and yet love Him and His word with uncompromising sincerity so that we cannot just claim blind “tolerance” and ignore outright rebellion. People never believe that we’re not ultra-right-wing whackos who hate others because they’re not like us, when in fact the truth is that we love them because they are JUST LIKE US: sinners who need to be reconciled to the Father just as we have been. Anyhow, thanks for your clear explanation and handling of the various facets of this issue.

  • Beautifully said and showing God’s love and truth.

  • Amen, Pastor Bob! We need more CHRISTians speaking the TRUTH in, and with, love. Thank you for your prayerful, WORDful, comment.

  • Thanks Tommy, God bless your ministry at harvest.

  • Ok, knowing your excellent editing eye, you are gracious and very kind Mr Noel. My heart breaks for how lost Jennifer has become. I did my best to respond in love and remain believing the last chapter in this sad eight year saga is yet to be written. Meanwhile, I think you should move to San Diego and help me keep up with this ever expanding church and ministry! I could benefit from a detail guy like yourself. Blessings, pb

  • Thanks Jon, we can never forget that. Like Paul, who admits he’s is chief sinner, we reach out to sinners with the message of redemption. 2 Cor 5:17
    Every blessing, pb

  • Thanks Shawnie. Appreciate the encouragement.

  • Blessings Kathy, thanks for the shout out & praying for a miracle. bb

  • Great thing about the blog is hearing from you all throughout the day. I hope I encourage you as much as you encourage me. Keep the faith. Fight the fight. Finish the Race. Stay faithful. Thanks so much for helping me do that better. Soncee you are a living miracle of what trusting in God can accomplish even in the face of challenging circumstances. Bless your heart. You are the type of Godly example the Church needs! Keep living it out sista. In His Love, pb

  • Complete and through – thank you for your stand! I appreciate your uncomprimising position, yet filled with love for the sinner. God is and will continue to honor your leadership.

  • Read the post last night listening to her soulful music… Breaks our heart that she has continued in her current lifestyle… Great response, really hit the nail on the head and made you think and pray… And if you pleased Mr. Noel then you know you are on the right track… =) And Noel I agree with Bob you should move out here and help him out! Love ya both!

  • Thanks Tara. Two Witnesses! So shall it be done. :o )

  • Pastor,
    Your comments really moved me…very well written. I could not have said it any better even though that is exactly how I believe and feel about sin. Thank you for sharing. God Bless.
    …a fellow sinner

  • Mariana Sain- Morar

    Your message is so clear and filled with Love.
    I am so blessed God directed me ( and my family ) to this church.
    Thank you, pastor Bob.

  • Bob,

    I read this today and it was as if I saw everything from a new light. I am a Christian and a married woman. I have fought tooth and nail every step of the way against what I thought were “close-minded right-wing people” trying to get in the way of other people’s lives. I admit it. It was wrong. Moreover, I was wrong. It’s only now that I see (thank you for the Romans 1 reference, by the way) that not everyone goes about preaching God’s Word the wrong way. To me you presented the topic in a new light that made me understand just how right it was. And you’re right. It’s not about hate. It should never be about hate. It’s about love.

    Thank you.

  • Rachel Crawford

    Well said. I could hear the sadness in your heart along side your conviction. I love the TRUTH as much as you, but my heart still hurts watching it be twisted until no truth is left. Love is such a misunderstood concept in today’s culture, and apart from how scripture defines it, it is not truly love at all. Be encouraged though, God will get the glory. These things, although discouraging, stir up hearts, and the truth never returns void. My prayers are with her.
    http://www.aubreyandellie.blogspot.com

  • In this ever so tempting world many will fall, the Truth is what keeps our focus on Him. My heart breaks for all that fall it is easy to turn away and staying in the bubble…..well that’s easy too. It is harder and more courageous for us to publically stand as a body and lift each other in prayer. Thank you so much!

  • Jennifer is clearly living in sin and comfortable enough to do it publicly. How many of us are comfortable living with our sin (just privately). God commanded his followers to love Him with all their hearts, mind and soul. Anyone who clings to the sin in their life (by cling I mean does not truly repent of it and turn from it) can’t love the Lord with everything they are. By definition it does not add up. None of us will ever be without sin, however there is a difference between stumbling with sin and outright living in sin and it is a condition of the heart. God knows our heart, we can hide our sin from others but not from God. When we truly understand this we understand that by knowingly continuing in sin we are turning our back on the God who gave everything for us.

    For Jennifer and many who call themselves Christians but simply will not turn from sin I fear that one day they may hear these dreadful words…

    But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.

    Let this be a reminder to us all to… Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
    2 Cor 13:5

  • Hey Dash, I really appreciated your post. Praising God for your openness in sharing what the Lord has shown you and praying many others will also be blessed. In Him, pb

  • Mark, you Nailed it and that’s the scariest of all realistic possibilities that compels us to tell the world the truth in love. God bless you, pb

  • Right after AWANA, I reiterated the main points of your talk tonight with my children regarding Jennifer’s Knapp’s decision to remain in sin and the spiritual consequences of her choice. Thank you for speaking from the heart and for always taking the right stand based on the Word.

  • very understanding and empathetic. Tolerance till the end of the world .lovely way to slow down and give people a chance. We don’t know what God is saying to others hearts, we don’t really know struggles people have. That was nice thanks. I am a Christian (the best one i can be anyway) and I have Gay friends. This calmed me and let me know, Be still and know he is God and he is way above us, not for us to judge or be in charge.

  • Thank you, Pastor Bob, for ALWAYS upholding and sharing the Truth in love with your flock. Your comments on this subject are very pointed, direct and firmly grounded in God’s Word, which is the only source of “Truth.” And He lovingly gave us His Word for the purpose of setting us free from the shackles of sin, as we continue to walk in it. John 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

  • Oh I Love this response Bob! You eloquently state the truth, but with love, without using the cliche, “Hate the sin, love the sinner” which is so overused and completely misunderstood. So often our brothers and sisters have become so cemented in their chosen identity that they cannot separate their sin from their identity. We tend to become the decisions we make. The more we choose something, the more we become that something. We are all in the process of solidifying our identities by the decisions we make. With each decision, we pick up momentum in the direction of that decision. It all boils down to Deuteronomy 30.
    I know that this was not an easy blog for you to write, especially since you have a connection with her, and clearly a love for her as well. I believe that it’s that love for her, as well as anyone who is in the bondage of sexual sin, which compelled you to speak the truth here. It is supreme homophobia to keep a whole section of society in the dark to these truths, especially when we know the physiological, psychological and spiritual dangers involved in this chosen lifestyle. Only when the love of christ is extended, and that person grabs ahold of it can they change from the inside out. The Gospel is an offense, but we don’t have to add to that offense by the way we deliver it. You have beautifully tied the truth of the story of the Prodigal Son to your heartfelt call for Jennifer’s return and total restoration. You seem to understand that people’s needs are far more profound than their aberrant behaviors. Behavior – the things one says or does – reflects the heart. The point of confrontation is what is occurring in the heart, not the behavior. Your concern is to unmask sin, helping others to understand how it reflects a heart that has strayed and the need to return.
    For our dear sister Jennifer, I pray that the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.
    15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live…” please dear sister, choose life and blessings! Amen

  • Pastor Bob, we were talking about the issue of homosexuality and how the world perceives Christians’ view on this subject in our home fellowship a few weeks ago. I think a lot of Christians are guilty of not showing enough love to homosexuals. Many homosexuals have been abused in their lives. They need to see Jesus’ love flowing through us to be attracted to Christianity. I think of the case of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus showed love and forgiveness to her but he also told her to go and sin no more. How can we hold up a Proposition 8 sign on a street corner and still let gay people know that we love them? We need to show them love by our actions and not just by our words.

  • Bob-beautiful response. Thank you! I am so blessed to learn from you.

  • Bob- Beautiful response. Thank you. I am truly blessed to learn from you!

  • Well said and prayerfully thought out. I can hear your passion for the Lord and His truth in your writing, which gives HIM so much glory. Thank you for standing steadfast in your faith for the Lord and on behalf of your flock. Thank you for not caring more about someone’s comfort than their eternity.

    Be blessed,
    Heather

  • KK “unmasking sin” I love that. Thanks BB

  • Thanks Tammi (twice no less) Hey it’s so cool watching your son Robert excited about church, committed and growing in the Lord. I sat with him (and his pretty blonde friend) at REVOLUTION last Sunday night and though this is just so cool. Might just have him up there preaching some day! I’m sure you’re praising God for it all and I’m rejoicing with you. Keep up the godly work in the Ramage crib. Blessings, pb

  • I cannot thank you enough for speaking the truth IN LOVE Pastor Bob. We need more pastors like you!! I miss Horizon but Kenton Beshore at Mariners is right on as well!! Your wife is doing an awesome job on the Marriage study. I pray the Lord continues to use you both for HIs glory.

  • I am so thankful to have a Pastor that speaks the truth in love even when others will not. We need more pastors like you Bob. Press on!!!

  • I commend you for speaking some truth, yet the same standard you are imposing on others should be impose on pastors when leveraging the law with grace, and mixing the obedience of the law and Grace, yet it seems pastors are the exception to when a person in Christ says something to them. When you became aware of this relationship, did you consulted five witnesses to corroborate a sinful transgression? I do not think so.

    Furthermore, do not stop short of your statement of “”"The New Testament brings a new level of understanding to food and clothing (Acts 10) while still condemning homosexuality (Romans 1)”"” because Blessed Paul did not stop at only defining, describing and pointing sin and it seems you are stoping at that and that my friend is not the good news.

  • Demi, Double thanks! Say Hi to Kenton. We both started as punk youth pastors (forest home). Amazing what the Lord has done. All the best, pb

  • WAY TO GO CYNTHIA! That’s exactly what we’re supposed to do. Train em up in the way they should go. Prov 22:6. Every blessing in Christ, pb

  • PB, You said it loud and clear before, Two feet in the Kingdom. I have learned there is a difference between Christian music and Godly music, music that praises and worships our Lord and Savior. I too have gay family and friends whom I love. To all of us here on earth and for my own sin I offer this prayer:
    Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing, and perfect will.Romans 12:2

  • David Daughters

    Pastor Bob, after I wrote my response to your blog I felt the Holy Spirit telling me that I didn’t quite say enough. I whole heartedly agree with everything that you said. You are a wonderful pastor. Your message last week on John 21 was the best message that I have heard in months. That was what inspired me to write about showing people that we love them. I love the way that you are leading our church. Thank you for letting the Holy Spirit work through you in such a mighty way.

  • PB:

    Love reading how in touch you are with the people that care about and read your words. Can’t begin to stress how much I would love to talk to you further on this subject as I have a few questions about God’s Word, but I know you are a busy guy!

    God bless you and the work you do in His name.

  • Bob,

    That was outstanding! I loved your thorough description on the prodigal and how repentance is the key. I also liked the way you equated habitual sin with treason. Yes, it’s treason against God.
    And lastly, I agree the Christians who are teachers or performers or in the spotlight need to be reminded that they have a higher level of accountability. Jesus speaks very harshly about those who lead others astray.
    I admire your courage and unwavering profession of the truth!

  • Hey Wendy, Praying for your friends as we speak. This issue that Jennifer has brought before us effects everyone, but especially those who have friends trapped in the lie that true love can be defined selfishly and their terms. In the end that isn’t love at all and certainly not God’s will.

    I was just informed Jennifer Knapp is coming to San Diego this next week (wednesday) for a concert. Please join me is praying for the opportunity we may have to reach out to her in the powerful life-changing love of our Savior who loves us so much that He died for our sins on the Cross.

    The context of John 3:16 is often overlooked. As religious of a “believer” as Nicodemus was he needed to become something totally different. He needed something New. He needed to become Born Again. Just prior to that beloved 16th verse, Jesus draws the analogy of His life on the Cross and the serpent Moses lifts up in the wilderness. The Crux of the issue is this, which life will you choose? It’s one or the other. And he begs us to choose life in His name. To offer up our life for His, no longer live for ourselves but for Him. That He was lifted up on the Cross to pay for our sin and consciously make it possible for us to die to our sinful ways but set free in the joy and newness of a life where sin has lost it’s power and hold of me and Christ is Lord of all.

  • As I read the last comment Jennifer made to CNN I was moved to tears

    “If I am in any way unpleasing in his sight, I can only hope and pray that he gives me the opportunity to find who I am supposed to be.”

    How many times I have prayed that God create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit in me. He is always faithful, let’s continue to lift her up in our prayers.

  • Craig,
    We are all unpleasing in His sight accept that Christ died for us. Jennifer has not denied Christ’s love and sacrifice. I do not believe she is living in sin.
    Bob, you started your youtube.com response to your blog by saying that this all is not about the inerrancy or on errancy in
    Scripture. I beg to differ. Men translated Scripture. I cannot have faith in words translated from an ancient text by sinful men. I can however, have faith in a powerful, loving, unchanging God who values commitment to Him and a humble heart. From my perspective the real question Jennifer would need to answer for herself is whether she would be willing to sacrifice her relationship with her partner to honor her Heavenly Father. How many people in their heterosexual relationships have considered that choice? I’m going to guess they’d give it lip service, but I’m not so sure they’ve really considered it since they are supposedly living “within God’s will.”
    You spoke in your video with eloquence, but I will tell you that it did not ring right with me. You sounded like the country club Christian that I have been trying so desperately to get away from. I’m angry and frustrated, because I don’t think God had in mind for the church to be what it is today and yet I’m challenged by your words to go to the Lord in prayer more and study more.

  • Pastor Bob,

    Two things first: 1) I just came here after watching your Youtube response to the whole issue and I’ve never heard of you before. 2)I’m not a Christian and never even heard of Jennifer Knapp before today (my mom, a Christian, likes her music and supports her coming out of the closet– though perhaps you would say that she’s not a Christian then). Struck by how difficult all this must be for her I have wondered how much bile and invective she would have to endure.

    Happily, I don’t see much in the way of bile or invective in your response. You say you’re not a “hate filled, homo-phobe, preaching bigot” and I agree that you don’t seem either hate-filled or homophobic. You are, however, a bigot. Because when you take a bigoted position and say bigoted things (however motivated by love you may be) that makes you a bigot. It’s rather like the casual and unthinking cruelty of the man who asks in all honesty why you’re wearing shoes when you say grew up in Kentucky. That person doesn’t intend to be hurtful and would probably be mortified to know that he has said something demeaning, and yet he has. What you are doing is telling someone that they have no right to the happiness they’ve found for themselves.

    To be fair, you are right. The Bible does condemn homosexuality and not just the “Old Testament” (that unfortunate coinage). It also condemns divorce (and I’m sure you throw divorced people out of your church) and the mistreatment of the body (anyone over 200 pounds is out too, right? And what about smokers?), and people who have money and trade for money. But that doesn’t imply that these things are not the statements of a violent intolerant culture more concerned with power than human flourishing.

    I hope, as in your blog article, that my response doesn’t come across as bitter or self-righteous. I guess I just wrote to provide another view of the matter. I confess I see this ending in one of three ways. Either she will reject the church entirely, she will make peace with her own spiritual perspective (like the Indigo Girls), or she will spend the rest of her life torn by guilt and defiance. But she will never stop being gay and, I presume, she will never stop longing for God. I just hope she finds happiness (though I doubt I’ll start listening to her music; I’m just not the CCM sort).

    Vale

    Eric

  • Eric, God bless you. Thank you for your opinions. If I may shine some light on a few of your assumptions. First we don’t kick homosexuals (or anyone for that matter) out of our church. All are welcome. We are also quick to admit that none of us are perfect and would rather view our church as a hospital for sinners than a museum of perfect Christians.

    There is only Person who ever lived the Christian life perfectly and it was Jesus Christ. The idea for a Christian is not to attempt in our lame abilities to outdo Him. Rather it is to let Him live His life in us. That being the case, I think we can agree that Jesus wasn’t a homosexual right? Thus, it only stands to reason that anyone inviting Jesus Christ to live in them would also not be a homosexual or practice any such manner of sinful behavior.

    If by bigot you mean extremely partial to the teachings of the Bible I will not argue. If however you mean I am intolerant of others, I disagree, not desiring ANY to perish but ALL to come to repentance. Regardless of race, color, creed or religion, we impartially are ALL sinners deserving of death. At the end of the day we choose to remain dead in our sins and trespasses, or we can choose to receive the forgiveness and newness of life that Jesus Christ has come to provide. I genuinely invite you to choose Christ. Lastly, in turning from a life of sin and deciding to trust and follow Christ, there are some specific sins that do seem to possibly be weighed heavier than others. Sin is sin, but according to the ten commandments, and passages such as 1Timothy 1:9-10 there are some sins in which the Lord is wanting us to be extra cautious of. (I’d draw anyone who is confused about God’s position towards the sin of homosexuality to the passages both in 1Timothy 1 and Romans 1).

    Smoking isn’t there (smoking won’t send you to hell, only makes you smell like you’ve been there). Obesity also doesn’t show up, nor have entire cities such as Sodom & Gomorrah been destroyed because overweight lazy people sat around smoking, or any such thing. Yet even in this extreme case of sin gone wild, we do see a merciful God willing to spare any in Sodom who would heed His voice. I pray you will hear His voice calling your name and you would trust in Him as your Savior and Lord.

  • Thanks Craig, I’m 100% with ya in that prayer. And Psalm 51 is a great place for us to camp out for sure. In His service, pb

  • Pastor Bob,
    We were at our Fellowship’s Meeting last night, and this issue was mentioned. I just read your excellent response to Jennifer Knapp’s article. Your were loving and yet you upheld God’s Word and its truth. Keep us in the path to righteousness dear Pastor Bob. As in Romans 12:1-2 I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. Amen

  • I have to share again since I have not seen a response to my first post.
    I appreciate your response to Eric. I get very frustrated when good intentioned people try to focus on “other sins” that are not acceptable in the church in order to “justify” the life of a homosexual, but it actually then defines homosexuality as a sin. Eric did agree with you that homosexuality is condemned in scripture, but I find that to be a biased, traditional interpretation of scripture based on inadequate translation of the original language. Do you have a convincing response to that? And I must comment as well that Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexual behavior, please take a look at that. WAY too often that is the interpretation used against homosexuals and yet it is not what Scripture says. Also, I’m really confused about why you would even begin to say anything about the sexuality of Jesus. I know that I would not go so far to say that he could have been a homosexual, but come on… you can’t begin to think you know what was going with him regarding His sexuality. Some might jump on the heterosexual bandwagon of that and begin talking about whether he had sexual relations with women, had children, etc. Truth is, He was physically male, but I would gather from the nature of God that he was quite asexual.
    I am terribly sorry to say this, but you REALLY lost my attention with the Jesus was not a homosexual comment, because of what it means that you are presuming. God is neither male nor female, and He’s both. I use the male descriptor only because it’s commonly understood, but it doesn’t sit well because I was taught that are ALL made in the image of God. I believe that.
    I strive to be like Christ everyday, I fail miserably sometimes, I never really come close, but it is my desire.

  • In addition you say “smoking isn’t in there (smoking won’t send you to hell)”

    I firmly believe that Christ would be very angry at your response to this thread, because of in your very own words you infer that certain sins send you to hell….
    Here is what Scripture says, denying Christ is what will prevent us from entering the Kingdom… it says nothing of hell, and it’s the act of denying Christ, period, that keeps us from that. No other sin can separate us from God if we have believed the work and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

  • Dear “Touched”

    Your argument against the truth and authority of God’s Word is nothing new. Such arguments seem to lead to the same end, that “Truth is relative” conveniently allowing one to say that sin (i.e. homosexuality) is ok, while another agreeing with Scripture sees it as sin. Both cannot be right. So do we agree to disagree? Do we conclude there are no absolute truths? The reality is, the statement “There are no absolute truths!” is an absolute truth, which makes all such arguments terribly lacking, self-justifying and sad.

    The Bible is a book claiming and proclaiming absolute truth from Genesis to Revelation. Previously stated, the issue is the inerrancy of scripture and it should be no surprise that it has been the authority of the word of God that has been under attack by the devil since the start. In Genesis 3, Satan wasted no time in attacking the Word of God and enticing Adam and Eve to sin, leading them to death. Satan is no idiot. Sadly, getting the human race to question, deny and replace the Word of God succeeded in the Garden and has continued to blind multitudes throughout human history. Poisoned by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, humanity continues to write their own rules, but, to what end? The Bible says, “There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death” (Proverbs 14:12).

    The only hope for humanity, is to receive God’s provision of forgiveness and a new life which is found by surrendering ones life of selfishness and sin over to the life-changing salvation that is found in trusting Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. He covers our nakedness and shame, He replaces fear with hope, and He is the only hope for this world. His Word reveals His heart, His Will, His Love, His plans. The Bible is God’s Instruction manual for the Human Race. I am hopeful you will reconsider the ramifications of a heart that chooses not to believe in the Truth of God’s Word.

    As Hebrews 4:11-13 declares, “Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.”

  • Thank you Pastor Bob for the heart felt and compassionate commentary.
    It seems to be a common occurrence that has “unfortunately”
    come across the table, so to speak for all believers in Christ to deal with. May Christ’s love compel us all as we serve him.

  • PB…Love your pastor’s heart. May you always have the conviction to speak the truth in love. Keep the faith….k

  • Pastor Bob,

    I appreciate your remarks to the point of absolute truth. But you did not really respond to my posts accept for my question of the inerrancy of Scripture. I believe in the absolute truth of God’s love, power and grace. I would never say that there is no absolute truth because elementary philosophy would prove me wrong, as you simply pointed out. I believe that His Word is truth, but I do not believe that the translations of His Word have rightly presented the nature of that truth. God gave His Word to man, sinful man. Something as tangible and earthly as the Bible, as we know it, cannot be without error. This however, does not mean that the truths found within it are then dismissible. Is it the Bible that we are to believe in or the God of Creation. I often feel like the Bible becomes a talisman and the focus of our worship, not God Himself.
    If you are so convinced you are right, have a true dialogue with me. I don’t want to seem disrespectful of your position or training, I just have a really hard time with what the church has become.

  • Here is the big difference.
    I love my brother but I do not love his sin of homosexuality.

    There is hope for Jennifer as there is for any of us to break free of the bonds of any given sin including homosexuality through God’s power in our lives.

    I will say it again. I loooove my little brother but I do not accept nor love his sin!

    But as a homosexual your sexuality becomes part of your identity so to him that makes no sense. If you don’t love me being gay then how can you love me? They must be able to see their sexuality separate from their identity and see if for the sin it is and the destructive behavior and poison it is in their lives.

    If Jesus were to walk in to Horizon Christian Fellowship on a Sunday morning he would sit next to someone struggling with alcohol, adultery, pre-marital sex and yes even next to a person battling homosexuality. Its so hard for us as sinners to grasp that God’s Grace IS sufficient for us ALL?

    I am blessed to be on staff at Horizon Christian Fellowship and when my brother comes to visit me from Oregon in the summer I know he will be loved on when I take him to Horizon. My brother has been “out” for about five years now and God has done a tremendous work on my heart during that time. Filled me up with love and patience and strength as I have watched my brother dive into his homosexual lifestyle.

    In that time he has been extremely harassed and verbally and physically attacked in public by people that call themselves Christians. On the other hand he can then turn to the gay community who in turn welcome him with open arms and “protect him’ and love on him and accept him and encourage him.

    The church needs to be that place. We must be the ones loving on him and showing him grace and encouraging him to continue in his relationship with God but in no way are we to accept their sin and just walk away.

    I know in my heart that my pastors and my fellow staff will show my brother love and respect and will be more than willing to share with him the love of Jesus. Because we all fall short and there is no hierarchy of sin from God’s perspective. Some of us wear our sin in our homes when we are alone and others like my brother and Jennifer wear it on their sleeves and in most cases is the first thing others see. I wonder what our world would be like if we all walked around with signs over our heads that shouted out what all of our sins are. Inpatient? Angry? Not respectful of your husband? Problem with Pornography? In love with money? Gay?…

    All I can do is pray for my brother and continue to pour out my love to him and continue to speak to him about Jesus and how much God loves him. I pray Jennifer will be loved on by the church body but again we cannot water down the Truth of God’s Word when it comes to sin.ACCEPTANCE, tolerance nor turning the other way and not dealing with it IS NOT THE ANSWER. The gay community is ripe for evangelism.

    I pray one day Jennifer will be all over the media again shouting from the mountain tops how Jesus and the Holy Spirit cleansed her soul.

  • Treasures await you in Heaven Bob! Praise the Lord that He has presented you with this opportunity to witness to the world! Mike and I will be praying diligently for your family and your protection from the enemy, who will be on your heals tomorrow during the taping of the Larry King show. God reigns supreme and thru Him All things are possible & conquerable! Go get ‘em in Truth!! God Bless Lori

  • This song is for you Jennifer! We love you and pray that God is glorified in your life, Pastor Bob’s life, and our own. May we all burn with His desires.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkitC4yUmS4&feature=player_embedded#at=11

  • Praying for you to have the armor of God on to withstand the slings and arrows of the evil one. Tell it like it is Bob and let Larry, Jennifer and the world know they need Jesus to live a life of victory and be redeemed.

  • Susanne & Christian

    Dear Pastor Bob:
    We are praying without ceasing for you and your opportunity to walk the walk as a guest on Larry King. We know you will admirably represent our faith and our church family, and maximize this opportunity to teach Mr King and the CNN audience about His holy Word! We are sure you will be opening eyes, hearts and minds—LIVE!
    Praising Him!
    Susanne & Christian

  • Doug,
    I can’t presume to know Jennifer’s mind or God’s mind, but I do know that she has not once made the remark in her interviews that she denounces the truth of needing Jesus. I believe that she believes that, and if it is true than she is a follower of Christ just like you and I. She is being spoken of here as if she is not.
    Look at your elitist hearts people, please. I’m so sad and angry.

  • My heart breaks that you are angry and sad. That is not of the Lord. And I do not believe in my spirit that anything said here is not out of love. Nor do i see through Gods eyes that we are questioning Jennifers belief. All that is said, based on her actions, she is not following her belief.
    Always in Love we follow the Truth! We are called not to judge one another but instead to Love one another!
    May your heart, mind and soul be filled with peace and joy only the Holy spirit can provide! Lifting you up in prayer!

  • I meant to type …All that is said here is in Gods Love! Oops!

  • Clay Aiken & Jennifer Knapp: Larry King Live TOMORROW! – Ill Famed

    [...] guests on Larry King Live tomorrow include Pastor Bob Botsford (he recently blogged about Knapp’s coming out) and reformed homosexual preacher Ted [...]

  • Paster Bob,

    While I understand what you wrote, and agree theologically with many of your points, I struggle to see an overarching theme of Love in your post.

    I’m a longtime christian with many gay friends, and specifically 2 friends I know to be gay and christian, but still in the closet. This life is so much more unhealthy than coming clean. Their secret practices do more to hinder a life of seeking after the Lord than if they were to live as out gay men – still involved in the church.

    To that end, I wholeheartedly support Jennifer’s decision. I’m not saying that I’ve turned away from the words of the Bible, or that I’m not conflicted, but if anything, the God I follow is a God of Grace.

    You said in your comments that you welcome all people into your church, which is as it should be, but your post pleads with Jennifer to not be true to her heart’s desires and to “get out”. I can’t imagine her struggle! And I presume, neither can you. Her words are so honest and beautiful in the interview in Christianity Today and I feel like we’re all where she is in a way, we may have different problems, but aren’t we all on a journey of faith, with highs and lows?

    I pray that you will be filled with a heart full of compassion instead of words full of doctrine in your appearance on Larry King – and I would welcome a response.

  • To Bob and all of you Christians who are weeping and sad because of this “loss” of witness of the saving grace of Jesus Christ…

    You just wait. Jennifer, by being authentic and honest (can’t say the same for many of us, Christian or not), has just made an INCREDIBLE witness to gays and lesbians who may have never given Christianity a second thought because of well-meaning yet ultimately condescending, dismissive views, such as those that have been expressed here on this page.

    You probably all feel warm and fuzzy and as you stroke each other about how loving and *right* you all are, but I hate to break it to you: most gays and lesbians won’t see love in your words at all. If you think you are a witness to them, think again.

    On the other hand, there are gay Christians the world over who are in a unique position to witness for Jesus Christ. Will Jennifer Knapp be one of these? Perhaps. In fact, if you check out her facebook page, you’ll see God’s hand in action. There are gay people who have never heard of Knapp who are now willing to listen to her music. Which, as you know, witnesses to the love of God in Christ Jesus. :)

    To God be the glory!

  • Pastor Bob –Thank you for your blog and your willingness to speak up and out about the Glory of our Father, His unconditional love for us and forgiveness of all of our sins if we believe in Him and repent. It’s truly interesting to read through all the responses, positive and negative.

    I can honestly say that I’ve seen my share of hatred, bigotry, bias, prejudice and hypocrisy because of my career choices and in my walk with the Father. I myself have been bullied, teased, ridiculed and ostracized. Mostly the ridicule came because I’ve always known and stood up for what’s right and what’s wrong regardless of the sacrifice. I find most people either speak about homosexuality openly or wish to politely avoid the discussion completely.

    What I find so fascinating here is that no one speaks of what God created in the beginning. God created a companion for Adam from his own rib because God loved Adam and Adam was lonely. God chose the GENDER of companion and provided rules as to how the relationship should develop. By no means am I a Bible scholar, but I do know this, as Christians and a believer, I chose to model my life and relationship after God’s example, not man’s.

    I’ve spent the last 55 years growing in my walk with the Father. I don’t know my birth father but I do know my Father. I run to and from Him because of sin. One thing I know for sure – when I struggle in the deep darkness of sin – the uncertain tug I feel, the desperation, the despair – I know its God’s voice summoning me home. I dare to say everyone who sins, including Jennifer, is struggling because God is summoning her home. I know she hears His voice, I pray she listens.

    Touched, but troubled for all my brothers and sisters.

  • I hope we remember to speak the gospel according to Jesus Christ, not any pop singer, or even a popular pastor. Stick to the scriptures Pastor Bob and God will be with you.

  • I am a christian, and first became a Jennifer Knapp fan my freshman year of college when I got her Kansas album. I was one of the first to see her since her return. I don’t claim to have all the answers where sin and scripture are concerned. There is so much room for debate and interpretation, that I feel at the end of the day, if one has asked for and received salvation, it is between that person and God. If Jennifer asked someone their opinion or it was a close friend or relative wishing to discuss their views or concerns with her….that’s one thing. The rest of us, Pastors included, should stay out of it and talk to God if we have issues. As for me, I love her and God has used her music to comfort, guide, and teach me. When I hear her honest, humble lyrics, I don’t feel alone in my struggles. I see God in Jennifer Knapp….and that is all I need to understand!!!!!

  • “your post pleads with Jennifer to not be true to her heart’s desires” – I think you nailed it, Holly.

    And I think you’re right, we’ve all been there. The struggle, for all of us, comes when the desires our heart conflict with the desires of God’s heart. The issue is whose heart we choose to follow.

    We all choose to follow our own hearts over God’s at some time or other. And we all need repentance and grace. It’s free, and it’s limitless. The only thing that can keep us from that grace, in fact, is us – when we don’t ask for it.

    I know homosexuality is the hot-button topic right now, but it’s no different than any other sin. You either see it as a sin and repent from it, or you ignore/justify/rationalize it and carry it around.

    The passage in 2nd Corinthains – “if anyone is in Christ, he [or she] is a new creation” – is all about salvation. And the older I get the more I learn that becoming new, and letting the old pass away, isn’t something that happens in an emotional prayer at summer camp. For me at least, it’s something that has to happen every day.

    I fail all the time, and put myself before God all the time. I’m forgiven all the time. I just hope if I’m ever at a point where I’m following my heart, and it’s in direct opposition to God’s heart, someone loves me enough to point that out to me. And I pray that if someone does, I’ll be humble enough to listen.

  • As a Christian who has struggled deeply with same sex attraction and was involved in a homosexual relationship for many years, something did not quite settle with me as I read Dr. Botsford’s posting. I have been in Christian counseling for the last 4 years and have been drawn by the Lord despite my resistance to Him and have been changed in more ways than I have time to recount. All this to say, I think Dr. Botsford’s perspective of homosexuality as willful rebellion and stubborn refusal to follow God and his specific call to repentance has oversimplified one of the deepest issues that those involved in homosexuality often deal with.

    I post this not to criticize Dr. Botsford. I deeply appreciate his heart of love and his desire to uphold God’s Truth uncompromisingly. I admire his courage to speak out, and I agree with many aspects of the perspective that he does share. I just desire that we not alienate people in their journeys with God or towards God because we have innocently arrived at an oversimplified answer for an issue that we may have never personally experienced.

  • Bob, I really don’t know you, but here is my issue. As Christians, we read that Jesus said, if we look on a woman with lust, we have already committed adultery. I don’t think that he said that to live in a world of judgement, but rather to set us in a world of dependance in him.

    I look around the Christian world, and it is full of men struggling with lust, pornography, pedophilia, and dare I say, homosexuality.

    My problem with your argument (I use that in the logical sense) is why do we put a higher value on homosexuality as a sin? I mean you could have spent your blog space, as a confession for your own sexual struggles, but you choose to analyze Jennifer Knapp.

    The danger I see is that you essentially elevate yourself to a God status, in both your judgement, and in putting a value on homosexuality as a sin.

    When are believers going to a) confess their own sin, b) start loving the homosexual community in a way they deserve, as representatives of Jesus Christ?

    With all due respect.

  • As someone with same-sex attraction who has been celibate for almost nine years for faith reasons, I just wanted to mention that it is not as easy as saying “Don’t do this.” Living a single, celibate life is very difficult. Certainly, people go through periods of singleness, but the majority will marry. And the majority who are not married can still enjoy some intimacy through dating–such as hand holding or kissing etc. Also those who are heterosexual and single have the potential at some point to end up in a committed relationship, whereas the exclusively gay person never has that option. Conversion rates to heterosexuality are extremely low. No more than 20-30%. A lifetime of single celibacy goes against the strong human need and desire to be connected to another person intimately.

    Its easy for those who are married or dating or have the potential to do so to tell us to just do the right thing. But its not a cross you have to bear. And I wonder how many of you would be successful if put in the same position. I bet many of you would not be as strong as you think you would or as strong as you expect Knapp to be. I am doing it day by day but it is difficult especially when every seven years or so I meet someone I fall deeply in love with and every time it really challenges everything I believe because it is so overwhelmingly powerful. I fully understand why some give in. Its a hard road to walk.

    I blog about sexual identity and faith on my blog at http://pursuegod.wordpress.com

  • Very well said, Pastor. We can love others without wanting to stand by and watch them destroy themselves and it’s clear that your concern comes from love.

    I will add you to my prayers because I think your public stand on this issue is going to make you a supernatural target.

  • For anyone who calls the one who chooses to believe what he believes in a bigot, I say your a bigot for choosing not to understand the other side. We want love and understanding so long as it doesn’t conflict with how we believe. “Oh no, don’t disagree with me or I might have to look inside myself to be challenged and grow.” I could debate this on a theological level but it’s no use. I simply choose to just stand up and quit trying to explain myself to those who won’t listen. I’m tired of being called a bigot simply because I have beliefs. I’m sure all of us who reach out the hand of compassion and empathy get tired of it being bitten. I’m not saying that I wont have compassion and empathy, but I don’t have it for those who choose to stay closed minded. I just flipped this convo on it’s head. Eph 4:14-16. I’m out.

  • While I agree when you write about God’s unconditional love and grace. I must ask, what is your struggle (hypothetically, I’m not asking you to bear your soul on a blog)? Is it fair to alienate one person and publicly write about her, telling her she is sinning and needs to turn away then expect her to see that you love her? Is there any chance that she would have read this or (forgive me) was it for your on gratification. If she did read this, do you think she would have been grateful for this kind of support?

    You seem like a sincere man, I do not doubt that you feel deeply about her, but you write as if it is an easy thing to leave a person you love. I’m not a homosexual but I do know people who are and the way they talk about it, it does not seem like it would be simple “to turn” heterosexual. You are talking about people who are genuinely in love with someone, then having other people tell them that it is wrong to feel that way. Yes, repenting and turning away is the ideal situation, but do you not think like most all sin there is a deeper issue that needs to be dealt with? Did Paul not have a perpetual “thorn in his side”? May Jennifer forever struggle with this even if she does repent? Probably. Could she repent then slip into the sin again? Most likely. Wouldn’t the best thing to do is love her and be there for her? and within any true relationship you can reach a depth of encouragement and being the example that Christ called you to be.

  • Bob…

    Please keep your heart open to the possibility that what you see as a missed opportunity is actually God ‘moving in a mysterious way’.

    Just…the possibility, mind you.

    Religion makes God smaller than he is when it claims to be absolutely certain about what is, essentially, mortal man’s ‘best guess’ about the mind, will, and heart of Divinity.

  • YES, YES, YES…..Thank you for writing this!! It is a choice, a wrong one. No excuses are accepted. It is wrong. Defiance of authority is the issue. So, I was born this way no you were not!! Were you born a murderer? If so the law does not excuse you acting out this obsession. You were born a man or a woman. Now do right or don’t do anything! Can’t you control yourself? These excuses do not hold water in court of law. I just can’t help myself!!! Choose to “help” yourself or control yourself. Forsake these urges to sin (miss the mark) or what is the right thing to do!! If you can’t then admit it and turn it over to God is who the authority you do not want to obey!!

  • I am extremely shocked by the comments I just read on this blog. How is it possible that all of you are
    supporting what Pastor Bob is saying? As a heterosexual woman and someone with many homosexual friends, I know
    NONE of these friends have a choice in their sexual preference.

    Pastor Bob, you’re telling Jen to “get out” while she can, but what you’re not considering is, what if she can’t get out? Jen is a homosexual, just like you are Caucasian, just like I am a woman. This is just something that we all need to understand and support. If you love Jen and your other gay friends like you say you do, then support and accept them. That would be a true sign of your love.

    Why would God make a person gay if it’s considered a sin? I’m guessing your response is that God doesn’t make
    people gay. That brings me to my next point. You point out that many gay people had “damaging experiences” that “wreak havoc” on the formation of their identity…in other words, these are the cause of homosexuality. What about the homosexuals that had a completely normal upbringing? Do you think they chose to be gay just to live a harder life and deal with judgements by so many people in this world, including you?

  • Dear Pastor Bob,
    Thank you for your thoughtful and prayerful post.
    You say that Acts 10 brings a new level of understanding to food and clothing (the Old Testament dietary laws). But think about it: the whole point of Peter’s vision was NOT about food. It was about preaching to Cornelius, the Gentile. It was about people. It was about accepting those who had formerly been considered unclean under the Law. And I believe this applies to homosexuals. God doesn’t really care about food as much as He cares about how we treat others. The whole point of Acts 10 is about accepting those who we might think are unclean and sinful.
    I’ll be praying for you tomorrow and will try to watch the show.

  • I think some of the things Bob mentions in this blob are simply a repeat of the Bible. In other words, according to scripture, homosexuality is a sin. Hence, GOD is saying it’s a sin. Bob agrees with what’s written in the bible, obviously. BUT… is this sin? If it is sin, why would God create people who have a deep psychologically-rooted belief they were born into the wrong sex? If He’s not responsible for this, then what/who is? Well, like Bob said, people have violent, unfavorable histories that promote these mixed sexual identity feelings. So are they suppose to just turn a switch and BAM, go hetero again? Easier said than done I bet. I agree with many who say, as Christians, we should at least support these people, i.e. do not judge. Leave that to God. Bob says “get out”. I’m not a psychologist but I think these cases are much more complicated. i.e. it’s not that easy to just “get out”. People in burning buildings don’t always have a giant red-carpet lined with sprinklers that leads to the exit. ok ok… I just realized Bob never said it would be easy. I guess the ultimate question is for Ms. Knapp: do YOU believe in God and do YOU believe your sexual preference is sin? For Bob: if Ms Knapp was previously and/or is “SAVED”, isn’t she STILL saved, REGARDLESS of her sexual preference? Either way I pray all Christians and non-Christians would pray for each other and quit with the arguments and judements that divide people.

  • I can’t help but shake my head when I see Christians capitalizing the T in truth when they speak of their own beliefs. Pastor, you are just as blind to the Truth as anyone else. You have no real idea what God thinks about anything. You cling to the logical fallacy of tradition and it’s only because you live in a culture cut from the same fabric as yourself that people even take your claims seriously. You’re as blind as I am. The only difference is I don’t get paid to maintain an illusion of security.

  • Pastor Bob,

    All the way from Afghanistan, I appreciate your post, full of godly wisdom and truth delivered in love. Praying for this situation.

  • thanks for not whitewashing.
    the big question in my mind is how we can communicate the need for change and still accept them at the same time.
    Hate the sin but not the sinner makes no sense to them.
    Most approaches i know of are offensive to them.
    It’s not going away, but compromising the truth isn’t the answer either.
    Your thoughts? unlost@hotmail.com

  • I love Jennifer, and her music. May it continue to move people to Christ (as it did for me so long ago).

    And…not to seem too much like an English nut…”irregardless” isn’t a word.

    *nerdy smile*

  • Godly Wisdom, and Godly scripture give us all opportunity to avoid the pits in the road… earthly consequence caused by the dismissal of such advise are not often escapable! We would have our own way and then ask for God’s blessing! God has not always been known for this… and the reprecussions, though not of His making, can be very severe and very far reaching, beyond our wildest imagining, to family, friends, work mates, those who we never thought would or should have a right to be effected. The cost is always over budget, and on all levels… And then the judgemnet…no one escapes!
    I am relieved to be reminded, as I ponder the Lords Prayer, that the only choice I can actually screw up, on the scale of iternity, is what did I do with Jesus and His provision for me.
    A rejection is this makes all the difference, and as Solomen said the rest is vanity!

  • Where ***exactly*** in the bible does it say homosexuality is a sin? Is this another one of those “open for interpretation” topics that people will debate forever? (like like the topic of “equal yokage” and the ongoing debate over the interpretation that christians that marry non-christians are sinning, according to some people).

  • Bottom line is God created man, knew he needed a partner, and so he created woman. He didn’t create another man and a woman, and tell Adam to choose. He designed man and woman to be together on purpose. Anything else is NOT part of his plan…period. Getting out of sexual sin is just as hard as getting out of any addictive behavior. A sinless life is hard, but not impossible…which is exactly why God gave us Jesus. Knowing of God, is not the same as knowing Him. Satan knows who God is. When you know God, you know His truths. When you love God, you live for Him, not your own desires…no matter what they are. Keep shining the light Pastor Bob and Horizon!

  • Jem, we all started life as sinners. A sinless life is IMPOSSIBLE by us. Only Jesus led a sinless life. Careful with your words.

    People engage in all sorts of acts that are not part of Gods plan. So are EVERY SINGLE ONE of those things considered SIN? God didn’t invent airplanes. Man did. And now we can fly like birds. That wasn’t part of His plan. Is that Sin?

    Are homosexual christains not saved, or, not saveable? Isn’t this question what this blog boils down to?

    If this girl didn’t have a previous life as a christain, would this blog ever been created? Does Bob plan to start a blog about other public figure’s who “come out”? He should.

    Christains reaching out to each others that are or were christains is great. But I think more christians need to reach farther, especially to those who aren’t saved so they (christians) aren’t demonstrating favoritisim only towards other christians, and aren’t demonstrating isolationism of non-christians.

  • Hey you all! What great discussion! I have found that the complexity of this issue requires great insight, wisdom, and compassion, all of which is sadly limited in me, but I offer this for your consideration: quite often, thinking patterns, early influences, skewed thinking that stayed that way too long, injustices at critical points of development, contribute to our character/personality and awakened desires. Sexual as well as other private desires. The applause, or affirmation or even the rejection that may come gives us great reasons to continue or compensate just to feel like we fit in or are alive. This hard work wasn’t part of God’s plan for us, but is what we are stuck with. Don’t we all have things we wrap our personalities, lives, behaviors that identify us but are selfish and manipulative and selfserving? And don’t those things keep us arrogantly from pursuing God’s true desire for us? I am so very thankful for the Jesus my Savior who is also my Great Healer who gives me courage to let go of the sins I don’t think I can live without. Because of His love and the gracious, loving truthtelling believers in my life, I am starting to believe the truth that I am loved regardless of the sin in my life, and out of gratefulness to He who continually forgives, I can dare to ask Him who
    He really made me to be. What a process. One with great cost.

  • Pastor Bob….I hadn’t heard of you or your church until I randomly saw a snippet of your conversation with Jennifer on CNN. I admire your courage to stand up for what is biblically correct, on national television, even though she seemed noticably agitated by your response.

    Honestly, this is something I’ve struggled to understand for a while now, because I have quite a few gay friends (including prostitutes and tranies), and it has been hard for them to understand how a Christian would want to love them and still be their friend while NOT agreeing with their lifestyle. But I guess what I got out of your blog was actually pretty simple: If you say you’re a Christian, you’re associating yourself with Christianity and Christian values, and it does say to abstain from homosexual relationships within the Bible. Thus, you’re consequently confusing people (i.e. non-Christians) if you say you’re a Christian and yet follow a different path and stray from what is written in the Bible.

    And ultimately, if you say you’re a Christian, you have to have to balls to stick to your beliefs and stand up to others who are confusing it for others, even when it’s not the popular thing to do….which I think you did.

  • Saved or Not Saved

    Pastor Bob,

    Ms Knapp’s salvation seems to be the root point of this entire topic. If not then, why shine the spotlight on her? I understand the message to repent but my guess is it’s not quite that simple.

    Unless there’s another “agenda’ or purpose for this blog, the ONLY topic I think that needs to be discussed (on TV or in person) is the following:

    If Ms. Knapp was previously saved, do you think she is still saved? Has she become unsaved?

    If Ms. Knapp was not previously saved, is her only hope of salvation to “get out” and become hetero again?

    Looking forward to your response, in our own words, please.

  • Did God really say it was a sin? Or was it what the translator of the original text thought the words where meant to mean. The original word homosexual was never used in the bible. The men that wrote the Bible and others that ended up translating it interpreted what God meant based on what they knew at that time. It’s been proven that homosexuals are born this way, which means God created them. Just like there are other homosexual animals in God’s kingdom. Christians are taking the text of the bible and spinning it to justify their view of homosexuality. The problem is if you truly believe the Bible is the final word of God then the society we live in that claims to have so many Christians in it are living in huge sin. Women should not be working they should be home with their children. The husband has rule over his house. You are not supposed to be materialistic. Then look at the huge homeless population. If Christians truly followed the teaching in the bible there should be no starving people or homeless. Christians change their perspective on many aspects of the original text to justifying their lifestyles of greed and selfishness. It’s pretty ironic they keep trying to convince everyone homosexuality is a sin. God made homosexuals it’s been proven they are born this way which is why I personally don’t agree homosexuals are sinners, especially when many believe in God and Christ’s love.

  • Y’all keep speaking about what God Likes, dislikes, feels, says, hates, condems etc, when the FACT is that none of you have ever spoken with him. You say he has spoken to you when actually that is just a feeling, hunch or maybe a breeze in the tree. You quote the “Good Book” like it was written by God’s own hand and not actually written by men who say they were inspired by God. and who finally wrote down the stories after being passed around for hundreds if not thousands of years before ink ever met paper. (BTW, have any of you ever played telephone – where you sit in a circle and whisper in the ear that is next you and so on and at the end is the story the same as when it started – usually not). The main thing that I have ever heard that God wants is to treat your neighbor as you would have them treat you and LOVE. Stop hating and assuming you know what God wants and why don’t we all wait and see what happens at the end of our lives. I think some of you with the mean and caustic tongues will be in for quite an awakening when God tells you what God ACTUALLY feels, thinks, likes, dislikes, hates, loves. Why can’t we all just be kind to each other, mind our own business and live the life that God would be proud of and not one filled with hate.

  • To Chime: It looks like we agree on a few things. I agree that we all started out as sinners and that the only way out of sin is by a relationship with Christ. I further agree that people vear off of God’s plan for their own purpose. Airplanes? I don’t think that is worth debating since God gifted man to be able to build things….which is definetly part of His plan. When you know God’s truth, His word, and His plan for you and diliberately ignore Him, the relationship becomes damaged. Can there be restoration? Absolutley. But not while the person is still purposefully participating in the sin they know breaks God’s heart. And this does!

  • Shawnie’s brother Steve

    Will be watching and praying for God’s leading in your responses this evening. Stand firm in love (I know you will), the world does not understand and wants God to fit into it’s mold….not going to happen.

  • Carolyn Puccini

    The bloggers that excuse the homosexual lifestyle do not understand why it may be considered sin or do not accept that sin exists, and that we are not to continue to sin when we accept salvation. They think human beings are mindless, uncontrollable creatures. This is what separates us from the other creation’s of GOD. This is the reason we need a redeemer and the Holy Spirit to help us achieve moral lving. The issue is the definition of what is moral. There is NO WORSHIP, NO PRAISE just music and words!!

  • Thanks Bob for your words. I am a gay man who has struggled with homosexuality my whole life… I am married to a supportive woman who has been an incredible encouragement, But.. I carry the burden of this torturous existence around with me everyday of my life. I feel like I’m a living example of someone who has surrendered, turned my life over, walked away from my sin in great humility (over and over again), but never experienced the kind of redemptive “change” my brothers and sisters in Christ have promised will be waiting for me on the other side of repentance.

    Bob, as much as your words resonate with some deep part of my soul, I still find myself frustrated, and here’s why: NOTHING you said is new.

    Let me explain. Your message, though I DO believe is right, is the modern churches current response to people living a homosexual lifestyle. To quote you, “So, I say in love, [gay person], Just get out!”

    That’s about all the church offers the homosexual. Promises of redemption and a vapid retort to “just get out.”

    When is the church going to REALLY engage culture on this issue… I mean DEEPLY. When will the church finally wake up and say, “hey, if we’re asking the homosexual [who struggles with a highly unique situation] to ‘just get out,’ where are we asking them to JUST GO TO?”

    Until the church is willing to say, WE DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS PARTICULAR STRUGGLE, but we’re willing to learn and listen, NO homosexual will ever take someone up on the offer to “just get out.”

    One of my dear gay friends who is a Christian has also opted not to live out his homosexual lifestyle; he is so DEEPLY in love with Jesus Christ, but last year he was on the verge of suicide because of the pain he is going through with the struggle of being a Christian and being gay. I can relate to him, because I’ve been in the exact same boat, and it’s only my ability to unhealthily disengage from the world so I don’t have to feel anything that makes getting through the pain tolerable. This is how I have to live if I want to be obedient. And, I’m tired of the church being OKAY with these kinds of scenarios.

    The church wants homosexuals to repent, but the church has NO IDEA what to do with the homosexual who is repentant.

  • Thanks you BOB for telling the truth on Larry King Live. You are 100% right!

  • God was glorified by your faithfulness tonight Bob.
    Thank you for taking a stand when it is not popular.
    Keep lovingly preaching the Word of God.

  • Pastor Bob,
    I saw your interview tonight with LKL and wanted you to know that I prayed for you throughout the interview. I think you were very well spoken and you showed a tremendous amount of patience. Thank you for reciting Scripture and standing FIRM in your beliefs. God’s Word will not return void. I will keep Jennifer in my prayers. I believe Mr. King and Mr. Haggard also needed to hear God’s Words from the Bible.
    May God richly bless your ministry as you lead the congregation of Horizon Christian Fellowship.

  • Here is my question, why can’t Jennifer Knapp just admit that her lifestyle is sin but she desires to live that way anyhow?

    Who do Christians, in an effort to address a conscience that was put there by God, compound their sin by attempting to call good evil and evil good? And in the process, put true Christians, standing for the Word of God on the defensive?

    Why can’t Jennifer just be honest and say, “Its sin but I’ve made a decision that my girlfriend and homosexual lifestyle mean more to me than my relationship with the Lord and His Word?”

    Now that would be stunning — for once just once, truth versus justification.

    Sorry Bob that you had to be bombarded like that on Larry King live by Christians who should call themselves something else and Larry who doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about.

    Shame on Jennifer…more so for being disingenuous than for being a lesbian — shame!

  • Hello Pator Bob,

    I am a sinner. I have not faith that God will forgive me for the same sin I have committed 6 times. Each and everytime I knew it was sinful and God would not be happy. I wish I could find some peace in knowing that God will forgive me.
    Your blog entry was well written and spiritual.
    God Bless.

  • Pastor Bob, your pious faux-compassion shown on Larry King Live tonight reminded me of why one of the main reasons why I left the church, and haven’t yet looked back. It’s “compassionate Christians” like you that give your faith system a bad name. (and this is coming from an evangelical pastor’s kid who grew up in the church)

    I’m just glad your righteous homophobia will now be recorded on tape, for all posterity. It’s going to be hard to explain these discriminatory statements to your flock and grandkids, when as the world continues to change and leave this religiously-driven bigotry behind.

  • Hi Pastor Bob, I am a believer who lives on Long Island and wanted to hank you for standing for the truth on Larry King. My heart aches that no one wants to believe in absolute truth it is killing us. But thank you for being a faithful witness to the Lover of our souls.
    May God bless and protect you as the back lash will come may He give you His grace favor and wisdom!
    God bless
    Diann

  • Thank you for preaching God’s truth as outlines in the Bible. We watched you on CNN tonight and support you 100%.

  • I watched you on Larry King tonight and was so thrilled to see someone willing to speak out in TRUTH as to what God’s Word tells us is right. I know you had to have felt outnumbered but you were willing to speak out and not cave in to political correctness. THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!! We need more speakers like you. You did a very respectful yet excellant job for the faith community.

  • Bob,
    I saw you on Larry King Live tonight and while I appreciate your stance and opinion I do have a question. Why is sexuality the thing that you believe defines us? We have so many different ways that we can categorize ourselves by; gender, ethnicity, religion, personality, occupation etc. If we are living our lives according to our faith in Jesus in every way, then why does He care about our sexual orientation any more than he does about our race or ethnicity? So to say that a homosexual person is living and sin and must ‘return’ to Jesus implies that their sexual orientation defines them as a person. Please stop making judgements about who is living in sin and who is not. Leave that to the Heavenly Father. Jennifer seems to be happy and fulfilled by the Spirit, please stop distorting that.

  • Thank you Pastor for not compromising the truth of God’s Word on Larry King. I believe that Jennifer is so deceived and Ted Haggard is luke warm. We know what God does with the Luke Warm!

  • Interesting how only the remarks that side postively with your comments remain on this site. I believe Jennifer leaves ALL posts for people tp see and to seek God and follow HIS call in their lives.

  • Thanks for standing for truth. We have a holy God who is love but uncompromising in truth. You represented Him well,. Consider it a blessing that you were persecuted.
    In Christ love,
    Sally

  • Rollin C. Bible

    I don’t see your writing as full of love at all. I see it as misinformed at best. I’m a 65 years old and have been in a Christian community my whole life, in several denominations. I am a follower of Jesus’ teachings. What is your teaching regarding divorce? Has God changed “his” mind on that too? How do you deal with Gal 3:28? I do not see same-sex attraction as sinful at all, neither does my wife of 43 years, nor our church. Keep your teachings and opinions to your community. You do not represent me, a Christian, as devoted as you are.

  • I saw you on Larry King tonight and wanted to thank you for speaking out in TRUTH and not caving in to the pressure of being politically correct. I know how hard that is in today’s world but you did a very beautiful and respectful job. THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!! You were an inspiration for christians trying to live according to the Work of God!!! Hopefully your leadership will help others speak out in Truth when it is not the popular thing to do.

  • M/M Donnie McKee

    Brother Botsford we saw you on the Larry King Show tonight and were very blessed by the way you allowed the Lord to give answers. We appreciate your commitment to speak the Truth in love and rebuke sin for what it is – rebellion against ‘the Holy God of heaven and earth”. There is no place for compromise in the ‘true church of Jesus Christ’ who is Almighty God Himself! He promises great reward for those who remain faithful to the end and the only way a person can do so is to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit which comes at the moment of salvation. We are from Tennessee and as everywhere, we are seeing such a great attitude of compromise in the local assembilies and it does break the heart of a true believer and follower of Jesus Christ. Please pray for us as we stand for truth and the Word of God and we will be praying for you and your ministry.

  • Selina Valenzuela

    Hi Pastor Bob. I just happened upon your conversation with Jenifer Knapp on Larry King Live. I was very proud of you for the courage you showed during that interview. It always saddens me when I hear a pastor justify homosexualtiy like the other pastor on the show. The one thing that was clear to me was that these people don’t know what love is. If they had been clear on that, they would not have sucumbed to the deception that same-sex relationships are founded in love. It’s a very clever counterfeit of the real thing. I have been struggling against same-sex attractions(SSA) all my life and am in counseling to heal my heart and mind. I’m pretty well convinced that you will find self-hatred at the core of this kind of disorder. All the more reason to show love towards gay-identified people. When they are able to fully accept and love who Jesus truely made them to be, the behaviors will dissappear on their own. A book I highly recomend for women battling with SSA is called “The Heart of Female Same Sex Attraction” by Janelle Hallman. Also good for anyone who knows someone they love is struggling with SSA.

  • Bob-

    I think I went to college with you for a year or so…don’t know that you would remember me.

    Your response seems to come out of a pretty funky paradigm that is perceived my many as antiquated and, perhaps, arrogant. The Church seems to have perpetuated something that you seem to buy into and it may be incomplete.

    The ’saving Jesus’ is a limited Jesus. He was about something bigger than that and I’m afraid you might be missing the point.

    God may just be bigger than you are making him out to be.

  • Great read on the subject

    “God’s Grace and the Homosexual Next Door” By Alam Chambers

  • Watched the Larry King show tonight. In my opinion you didn’t fit the mold, the two other guest speakers had something in common, they seemed to have this unspoken “we understand each other” because of their fall into homosexuality. Had you only talked about love, there wouldn’t have been a show, but because you mentioned “go and sin no more” and spoke that homosexuality is a sin — that set you up as a target,an unpopular, judgmental, and unloving pastor.

    If I am a Christian and give counsel on marriage and I have committed adultery is my counsel worth anything? Or if I counsel those who have alcohol and drug addictions and I find myself smoking marijuana and intoxicated with alcohol, will my counsel still be credible? If I should testify of God’s healing over my anger and others witness an action of physical abuse or verbal, is my testifying legit?

    Now if I have one, some or even all of these situations, and truly aware that these sinful behaviors are not beneficial not for me, my family, the body of Christ, and most certain not for God, then that is the difference. My heart attitude, I am whole heartily aware of my sin, my rebellion against God’s plan, and acknowledge that my sin needs to be dealt with. God doesn’t stop loving us, but sin blocks the full affect of His love for us, We chose … we will reap.

    Coming out, announcing the sin and expecting everyone to accept it is not biblical. We are to judge the believer by their fruits, we are to confront in love, and try to guide them back to the new creation, to the denying of self, and experience the grace given as one denies the craving sinful desires. With such coming out announcements if truly repented there should be a denouncing of the sin too, through truth. But now people want to make the bible fit their sin, if they read it from beginning to end, the theme about sin gossip, slander, adultery, homosexuality, all these sins need to be dealt with. Not try to find a loop hole in Greek for the justification of keeping on with sinning.

    You were the messenger, you keep doing it, we will pray for you and for those who have ears to hear. Wow, you were under attack, they wanted to paint you as an unloving and uncaring person … it didn’t work!!! Blessings and God’s strength on you!

  • Praying for you. You are the messenger of God’s truth for all of us: gossipers, adulterers, homosexuals, liars, etc …

    so that we will continue to be transformed and not be conformed to the ways of the world.

    Instead acknowledging that every day we are to deny ourselves from doing things that are against God. It can be fear, offensive language, drunkenness, and know that it is sin.

    For if we are looking for loop holes to justify our rebellion … then we should revisit what and who we believe.

  • grrrl meets world » Blog Archive » “in Christian love…”

    [...] The show took an interesting turn when King invited “Pastor Bob” Botsford on the show, to talk about his post, Straight to the Truth: A Response to Jennifer Knapp’s Coming Out. [...]

  • Did you ask the most important question of Jennifer? p below. Thank you. Here is what was left out:
    Jennier,
    My heart goes out to you in your struggle regarding the Lesbian choice. One thing was left out regarding you and the pastor and Ted Hagarty on Larry King live. They missed a most important point. Yes we all sin but a Christian doesn’t calls his choice to sin right. David committed adultery and when confronted with it called it sin and turned from it. Paul in the N.T. hated and fought against Christianity thinking he was right. Then He met Christ and he admitted he was wrong and his whole life was changed forever. What he once fought against he then spent the rest of his life fighting for. That can happen with you.
    There is no question that people make choices about their sexual expression. If a Christian commits adultery and then says God made me that way so it is okay, we would not agree to that.
    You have made a choice. Anyone who says you haven’t says you are a robot without ability to choose. You say that certain words may be misinterpreted but Romans gives a whole description of homosexuality. It is clear and the same in the original as in the English and in all versions of the Bible. Please read it and tell me how you can explain it to means something it doesn’t say? “Rom. 1:26 Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn’t know how to be human either—women didn’t know how to be women, men didn’t know how to be men. Rom. 1:27 Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.” The Bible clearly teaches that sex outside of marriage not between a man and a woman is sinful. So when a person practices homosexuality by choice he or she is sinning. Hagarty was sinning. He got free from it. Would he say his homsexuality was right? No one asked him that. You says its right even though scripture is clear it is not. You can argue over the meaning of a word but Romans describe homosexuality as we have seen clearly in more than one word.
    I sin but I don’t call itt right and say it is God’s fault because He made me that way. If we have no choices in life then we are robots. And we are not robots. We can and do choose every day. We are under grace so God allows sin to go on hoping and desiring that everyone should come to repentance and admit their sin and turn to Him for forgiveness from sin and a life time of learning to over come sin with His help.
    To call sin right in any form is totally wrong. Adultery, homosexuality, stealing, beastiality, pornography, pedophile practices, inner lust, cheating, pride, putting any God above the only true God, lieing, are clearly shown as sin in the Bible. It is not wrong for me to judge adultery as wrong in others life or my own. Jesus said to judge not that you be not judged but in another place we are told to judge. He that is spitiual judges all things yet he himself is judged by no man. One kind of judgment is wrong.It is wrong for me to judge myself better than them. I may be better off because I admit my sin, trust Christ and am forgiven, reborn and turn from it, but I am not better than they are apart from God’s grace. That is the ind of judgment Christ is speaking of being wrong, seeing myself as better than someone esle. But I can judge some things rightly. I can judge sin as sin. I must notjustify it and call it right. That is the difference between someone who truly follows Christ and some one who does not. He or she may be caught in a sin as Hagarty was. He finally got victory over it. So it was a choice he made with God’s help, not something he was born with. God is not through with you. You have chosen to put your feelings above God’s will. We all do that sometimes but to continue in it is disaster for us.
    I have struggled with sin as a Christian. The Bible says we are all tempted to do wrong. We can call it right when it is wrong and justify it but deep In our deepest heart we are either deceived or know what we are doing isn’t right. I’ve stuggled off and on with lust though I am a married. I never call it right though. God has finally given me victory in that are. I don’t act out those temptations and say it is God’s fault because he made me that way. I seek to put to death the deeds of my flesh which war against my soul. And through Christ i can and do have victory over the. If you are a true Christian you will finally discover that your bad sexual choice are not the will of God and you will be set free as you cry out to God for help. That may take a long time for you to life to figure out but if you truly know Christ and He lives in you by His Spirit He will not give up on you to you chose His will and not the will of the “politically correct” advocates of homosexuality. A lot of political correctness is Biblically wrong and sinful.
    The majority unfortunately is often wrong. When we all stand before God we will find that adulterers who would not admit and continued in their adultery calling it right will not be allowed into heaven. The Bible is clear that those who continue on deliberately practicing sin and calling it right will be rejected in the end. You may say the Bible doesn’t mean what it says but don’t call yourself a true believer in Christ and God’s word if you don’t. If you chose to practice sin you have that choice but it will end in your ruin, God does not want that for you. He wants you to be forgiven but you must come to Him and reject as wrong all the he calls wrong and seek to live a life that please HIm. Better to be rejected by people of this world than be rejected by God. Cain chose to come to God his way, was given a chance to come God’s way and rejected it. He ended in ruin. Rejection of His dying love and forgiveness means eternal separation from Him, something He does not want, but the choice is yours.
    Rev. 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
    I don’t know whether you will ever get this, read it and think about it. But I pray you will and I would be quite delighted and amazed if you answer me.
    In all sincerity,
    Dean L Gossett, Teacher, Father and Father.

  • It will never be popular to tell someone something they do not want to change is a sin. Reality is , if the Word says it, that’s it. Yes , we all sin. Am struggling with quite a few myself. The difference is the desire the Spirit gives you , i.e. conviction, to not be bound by that sin. He wants you to be free. As far as not being a simple thing to change, I am quite sure that is true. He says you have to abide(stay close to Him) or you won’t bear fruit.That’s for all sin. The same reasons could be given for someone who is addicted to food,drugs,sex,etc.The desire may still be there.As far as judgement, Jesus told people they were sinning all through scripture.When there was a woman caught in a sexual sin,after He advocated for her, he told her “Go sin no more.”As someone who has family and friends that are in homosexual relationships, I can tell you I love them and they are no less than I am. Because I love them , I will pray and share the Truth that sets us all free.I am grateful for those brave enough to tell me I was wrong:)

  • Pastor Bob,

    You were in a tough spot on LKL. But you did wonderful. Very patient and loving when the natural, human thing to do would be to get defensive, angry, and prideful under attack. How can that be? Only one reason…you have the Lord!

  • Hey Pastor Bob,

    Praying for you and your family, and I am so grateful to God for giving us such a faithful pastor. That was a dificult spot and yet you stood on God’s Word and His Word alone. Not your opinion or feelings, but what God says. Continue to preach the truth brother, I have grown more in my relationship with Jesus over the last three years at Horizon than I have over the course of my entire life. For those of you who think Pastor Bob is a homophobe or bigot, or pious..etc… I pray for you also, because all he does is preach God’s Word. Your beef is truly with God not Pastor Bob.

  • hI BRO BOB, I SAW YOU ON LARRY KING. I WANT TO PRAISE YOU FOR SAYING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.I WAS PRAYING FOR YOU PRAISE THE LORD FOR MEN LIKE YOU. PEOPLE ARE SO DECEIVED! THANKS THANKS

  • Mr Smarty Pants

    God changed his mind! Why? Did he make a mistake the first time? Your theology is as weak as your character “Pastor” Bob.

    Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. Pray that you’re wrong about hell Bob. Pray hard. Pray really hard.

  • Pastor,
    I just heard about Jennifer knapp by turning on Larry King Live tonight. Thank you for taking a stand. . .my heart is so troubled by what I have heard. I am so sad that Ted Haggard would go on national television and twist the scripture to justify sin. Shame on him. I probably supported Jennifer as early as anyone since she is from Kansas. My heart is broken for her false witness to young people everywhere. God will be the final judge. . . . .God is full of grace but will also be our judge. . .

  • Pastor Bob,

    My heart was touched and honored as you spoke the truth in love.

    Much thanks.

  • Bob,
    I watched you tonight on Larry King. You did well 3 against 1. I have to say though that you misspoke there when you said that God changed His mind. He does not change, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Larry sure has his own things he’d like to justify and I’m sure he can find a pastor that can support anything. Overall I think you did well and you represented God’s word well.

    Regards,
    Ron.

  • God Bless You, Bob. You helped shine Jesus’ Light in the darkness with humility, meekness & love :)

  • Pastor Bob,

    I saw you on Larry King live! A man true man of the Spirit!

    So much love and truth you spoke!!!! You were a true human being.

    It seems Ted Haggard and Jennifer Knapp are into New Age Relativism and not the Bible. It is always dangerous when people attempt to justify sin instead of drawing close to God. We are to repent from sin, turn to God, then be led by the Spirit. How can one embrace both sin and God? That is impossible!

    Whether it be pornography, premarital sex, adultery, or homosexuality–I will never feel comfortable rationalizing and justifying sin. Thank you for making that a strong point. God transforms us to be more like Christ. He does not want us digging our heels in to participate and celebrate sin.

    Shall we sin that grace abound? Certainly not!

    The Bible says it clear as day “That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.” Rom 1:26

  • I agree with everything you have said here & on LKL and I appreciate the respect you showed Jennifer & the authority you gave the Word. Your heart ache over Jenn’s decision was evident in your posture & facial expression, I thought your compassion was clear. I love Jennifer Knapp, actually her music is a large part of why I continued to seek Him as I struggled with my own sexuality. After a number of years, God placed other Christian women in my life who helped me walk in the freedom of Christ. I am so grateful to have been truly set free & growing deeper in love with Him as THE all satisfying One. I pray that for Jennifer as well. I had to walk in my sexual desires in order to be brought to a place where I received the gift of desperation. (although, if anyone could be spared that misery & return to Him that would save them much!) She is His and I believe eventually she will turn back to Him with her whole being.

  • I agree with everything you have said here & on LKL and I appreciate the respect you showed Jennifer & the authority you gave the Word. Your heart ache over Jenn’s decision was evident in your posture & facial expression, I thought your compassion was clear. I love Jennifer Knapp, actually her music is a large part of why I continued to seek Him as I struggled with my own sexuality. After a number of years, God placed other Christian women in my life who helped me walk in the freedom of Christ. I am so grateful to have been truly set free & growing deeper in love with Him as THE all satisfying One. I pray that for Jennifer as well. I had to walk in my sexual desires in order to be brought to a place where I received the gift of desperation. (although, if anyone could be spared that misery & return to Him that would save them much!)

  • Pastor Bob,

    We (my wife & I) were flipping channels and were surprised by jk being a guest on Larry King. Being fans of jk, we started to watch…….I felt mislead, betrayed, lied to, and angry that this also happened to many believers through the appreciation of jk’s music. And then become disgusted of jk’s attitude and non-impressed by her bumbling answers when one-on-one with Larry King (Larry King’s Attitude was expected.) But your comments made me realize that I, in a way, was worshiping the artist jk and not our Savior JC. Thank you for simply presenting God’s eye-opening truth, even when the truth is presented in a hostile, non-believer enviroment. jk and dw (derek webb) will be removed from my music collection and I will prayerfully anticipate the “Coming Home” album of jk.

  • There are many words that describe me: daughter, sister, friend, employee, renter, driver, catholic, swimmer, gum chewer, lesbian, cell phone user, christian, believer, doubter, passionate, thoughtful, prayerful, considerate, funny, sarcastic, authentic. I have always believed that God has called me to live an authentic life. For me, that means living my life as an out, lesbian, christian, catholic woman. I don’t pretend to know what living an authentic life means for anyone else, nor do I tolerate others who pretend to know what it means for me. All I ask of you folks who are so saddened by Jennifer Knapp’s sexuality is to prayerfully consider the fact that God cannot be contained in a box – no matter how big that box, God cannot be contained. Period. Won’t you consider asking God to change your hearts, much the same as you’d like me to pray for a change of heart?
    God is a big, big God – nothing is impossible, right?

  • Thanks for standing up for the truth.
    2 Timothy 4:1-5
    I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
    Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
    and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
    But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

  • To those of you trying to justify your sin and in this case homosexual sin, and yet claim to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior… Please, please read Galatians 5:16-21.. As the end of the last verse says, those who “practice” such things “will not” inherit the Kingdom of God. I am praying for you, that Jesus would open your eyes and your hearts to the truth of His Word…

  • Just watched Larry King. Pastor Bob you did a great job of calmly and faithfully giving the truth of the word. Isn’t it interesting how people who want to justify their sin always fall back on the idea that we don’t really know if this interpretation of the Greek or Hebrew is accurate. Reminds me of the question posed to Eve “Has God indeed said….? The cunning trickery of the enemy is always to doubt God’s goodness, to doubt His word…to doubt, in this case, an accurate translation of the word. And here we are again in 2010, with the enemy using the media to question the veracity and simplicity of God’s word.

  • It is interesting how people try to make themselves God by creating their own moral rules based in their own minds.

    It must be nice to be able to make up all of one’s own rules about life and live in moral relativism. Some people think God is so big there must be no rules on how to live.

    However, I believe God is so big that He is definitely smart enough to give us the Bible as His word on how we should live our lives.

    Romans 1:26 “That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.”
    The Bible says lesbianism is a “shameful desire”. Shame is a consequence of sin.

    God has our best interests at heart. He wants the best for us. Sin is sooooooo destructive and satanic that He knows we have to NOT sin! Whether it be adultery, sex before marriage, and homosexuality!

    Thank you Bob for letting us know that there are specific sexual sins out there (which includes homosexuality) that are damaging to us. and that can permanently separate us from a loving God if we don’t repent!

    You da Man Pastor Bob!

    Your message motivated me to live a better life free of doing any willful sins!

  • Pastor Bob, as I watched the show, I thought you did a great job in showing the world the love and grace and mercy of Jesus… As the apostle Paul said, “Love never falls” and you showed it. As a Pastor I know your heart and I know just how much it breaks for people who are caught up in sin, blinded by their sin… that’s why we all love you so much!

    Bob, thanks for loving Jesus and His people so much!

  • I watched Larry King tonight and I saw a spiritual battle taking place and the devils message was loud and clear as they continue to compromise what Gods Word says by saying “all is good” under the “Banner of Love”. As Christians we must remember that this same Loving God also promised “Judgement” (yes in the new testament). Romans 1 condemns homosexuality, but even more important speaks of people that will be lost. So I warn Christians that there is a reason God called Israel out to be apart from the rest of the world and to be pure under the Levitical Law. When the Scripture states “How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation” it is speaking to Christians. Christ made our way clear and there is no place for compromise, we are called to be Holy as He is Holy and homosexuality is offensive to God. I see no need to sugarcoat it, and I think it is a mistake for the Church to fall into the mistake of calling it love by keeping silent. I also know that the Bible teaches us to not even bid them God Speed (because what I saw tonight was teaching a different gospel). I could plainly see the concern on Pastor Bob’s face because he was the only one on the show that “Knew the Truth” and the other feel good pastor is a Heretic that many will use what he said to justify their lifestyle of compromise and sin. There is a big difference between accepting and loving a homosexual and a homosexual that is not only perverting the Gospel of Christ but encouraging others to do so, these do not fall under the banner of love but under the condemnation from God spoken of in Romans 1. Their twisted perverted feel good gospel is from the god of this world and we should come against it as Christians.

  • Bob,

    To say that homosexuality is simply a choice IS being a bigot. Your guise of love motivating your discrimination of Jennifer is sickening. The truth is that being a homosexual is not like choosing to murder or steal or cheat — homosexuality does not hurt any member of the community, on the contrary it allows people born homosexual to build and develop loving relationships. For you to tear apart the formation of love is anything but Godly. How you justify that in the name of God is so far from divinity that its borderline demonic. As you quote Romans 1, you miss the point of this passage — the people Paul writes about are those that left the Church to worship paganism and committed sins of lust, orgies, etc, as is typical of pagans of the time. No one argues that living full of lust is sinful, that goes for homosexual relationships, heterosexual relationships, or whatever… but no where does the Bible say homosexual love is a sin… In fact, why would God ever want to deny the creation of love when God, Himself is love?

    Please pray hard on God’s true intent and meditate deeply before you go on TV and profess in God’s name that He would reject the creation of love between two people of the same sex. Shame on you… In God’s name, you are misguiding and shaming countless people in the world who only want to find love with another human being and love with the Lord, as is the case with Jennifer. I pray daily for you and your congregation that you will find the true light of Christ and God.

  • Jesus did not come to Earth some 2000 years ago to jump on a talk show and point fingers. He dined with thieves, walked side by side with the outcasts and defended an adulterer from hypocrites ready to kill her. Jesus showed us by example what it means to love our neighbor as our self.

    I submit that if we were as concerned with this transformational concept as we were with sitting on our high horse and pointing fingers, our actions would speak louder than our words every could. To a world tired of empty promises and words spoken in vain, that is the only way the message of Jesus could ever be taken seriously.

    From one Christian to another, I believe you did more harm for the cause of Christ on LKL tonight than good.

  • Bob – I believe that in your lifetime you will look back on this and regret it. There is not enough clear evidence in scripture to condemn loving monogamous same sex relationships. When you study the original language and historical context any reasonable person has to admit that there is not conclusive evidence in scripture. Without conclusive evidence it is unjust to condemn. It wasn’t that long ago that well meaning Christians misunderstood scripture regarding slavery and interracial marriage. I urge you to be humble in what you believe and know so that if God speaks into your life about something you will be able to hear him.

  • Pastor Bob,

    Thank you so much for your blog. It saddens me that so many will look apon it and see it has hate, even Jennifer herself. I know the stuggles someone goes through when dealing with gay thoughts and weather or not to go that way. But I am blessed to say that God brought me through and kept me in his arms the whole way. Her music has touched so many people and I spent countless nights crying through her songs while recieving healing. I pray for her to find her true salvation again. Yes we all sin and fall short, but her being in the public eye makes it even harder to deal with. Thank you again for your blog!

    BLESSINGS

  • It is so heartbreaking to see how many people replying completely mis understand God’s Word. Homosexuality is also adultery, because it is sex outside the union of marriage.
    And as we all know, the Bible says, marriage is between 1 Man and 1 Woman… God’s Word is clear, how can so many of you miss this? I am praying for each and everyone of you.
    In Love, Mike

  • Jennifer replied that her spiritual advisers don’t believe homosexuality is a sin, nor does it disqualify her from eternal life. God is very clear that it is a sin AND if a homosexual doesn’t turn from this sin and repent, and turn to HIM they will go to hell. Throughout the entire Bible, God’s message on homosexuality doesn’t waiver and is very clear.Leviticus 18:22,29,30 ; 20:13,: Do not lie with the same sex. Genesis 19: 4,5,13,: Sodom destroyed because inhabitants practiced homosexuality. Romans 1:26: Lesbian acts a sin. Other good verses: Jude 1: 7,8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 2 Peter 2:4-9, 2 Timothy 2:19, and Ezekiel 18:4 The point is that one should live their life according to His plan instead of one’s own sinful desires and that is what Jennifer has decided to do. She has turned away from God, and I will pray for her.
    I was hoping Bob would have high lighted that Jennifer (mankind) condemns herself by willingly doing what God has forbidden. It is God’s wishes that none will perish (go to hell), but that all would have eternal life. It is up to the individual to accept or reject God. By rejecting his word, by knowingly disobeying Him, by building one’s whole identity around homosexuality, Jennifer is bringing God’s condemnation upon herself, just as the inhabitants of Sodom did. I will pray that Jennifer turns from homosexuality and turns to God and His truth.

  • Well said Bobby! May God continue to give you the boldness and grace to speak the Truth in Love.

  • Bob, I just watched Larry King tonight and believe you did a good job of loving the sinner and not the sin. However, I do want to point out that I tended to gain more from Pastor Haggard who has rather publicly fallen from grace and could understand where Jennifer was coming from. I believe that Pastor Haggard balanced what you had to say nicely and also in a sense built a bridge between what you and Jennifer both were trying to say. I also came away with a great deal of respect for Jennifer.

  • First of all, irregardless is not a word. Second, do you not think, based on the “update” regarding shellfish, that many other things written about are obviously outdated based on today’s world? About blacks, slaves, women, marriage, etc? WWJD TODAY? Can you not extrapolate your black and white thinking to realize that so much of what was written is just not relevant today?

  • Hello Bob,
    While I completely disagree with your “beliefs” about homosexuality being a sin, I believe you’re an extremely loving, beautiful soul.

  • Hello Bob. I just wanna say I respect your beleifs. And as a borna again christian I undersand what your tryng to say. But I’m gay. And I love Jesus Christ so much. I speak of his word whenever I get the chance to. What really ticks me off is that it’s easy to point fingers at someone. But unless you have gone through it yourself you will never understand? I’m aware of the text in the bible where God says it’s an abomination. But what if I was born this way? As a young inoccent child how am I suppost to understand? I feel convicted all the time when I sin. Just not about this. I can’t help what I feel. I like guys, thats what I’m attracted to. I don’t like girls at all. They disgust me. In the bible it does says its wrong to lay with a male. What if that meant sexually? It says sin leads to death, and with homosexuality comes disease. Ok bu what if I’m not living a promiscuous lifestyle, and commited to one person than how can that be said? Till this day I’m still confused about the whole issue. I believe a person can change through God’s help. God can break any bondage. But if I allow God to change me from being gay than I’m not being true to myself. Than I won’t be happy. All I want from life is for me to make my Lord Jesus Christ happy, but also me as well. There’s been so many times when I wanted to commit suicide because I did’nt wanna hurt God by being gay. Or my family. And I still feel that way. I’m only 17. and I’m praying that God shows me the desires of my heart. And whatever his will is for me I will agree with it. I’m single. But i want to meet a male whos is on fire for God, and agree’s God is the only way. How am I sining if I’m doing what God ask’s of me? I knew I was different since I was in first grade. All I’m saying is maybe we mis-understood homosexuality. There’s a difference from ppl who choose it, and ppl like me who remain close to God, but just love differently. What in the bible God meant peopl who are promiscuous. When he said a man shall not lie with a male. that’s pretty much meaning sex. And there’s alot of guys who have only sexual relations. And I think that is VERY WRONG. But it does’nt say anything about a romantice loving relationship between the same sex. I’m not trying to change any word in the bible. I would never do that. And I’m not trying to create my own rules. My I’m a bit confused on the whole subject only becasue I feel the bible is talkin about “homosexuality sexually”. And if I’m not living an only lustful life, but rather a Godly Christian Life just loving differently, than how am I sinning? What if the texts we read about in the bible on homosexuality we are misunderstanding? I just dont know. I mean what would you do if you were in my shoes, or Jennifers, or any other gay persons? You must see it fro our point of view. I’m not here to disrespect you, or say your wrong. Just want you to understand me? I’m also here for advice. Please don’t say I’m lost, or Confused. Ppl tend to tell me that. But I’m quite aware of the position I am in. God lives in me, he works in me. I am filled with the holy spirit. I want to live eternally with Jesus Christ more than anything. But after all this discussion and talk about homosexuality it than again makes me question. Can I be the Christian boy that I am, and live a Godly life…but also be in a commited loving relationship with a nother male? And still make it to heaven? Thats all I want. And now your pretty much saying no! So therefore that hurts me now cause I know for one I might never be fully happy. I don’t wanna be salibate forever. But I would never ever reject God. I just wanna live a life pleasing to God. And your saying I can’t if I’m gay. Well than what am I suppost to do? Why would God allow me, or Jennifer, or any other Born again christian whos is gay and I don’t even like to use labels as gay or lesbian, but any of us to go to hell? I believe God looks at the heart! I’m clear that God knows me and my heart to very devoted to him. Bu I DON’T LIKE WOMAN, and I don’t wanna be with one I can’t help my attractions. I’m just like you, but the only difference is i like males instead. Is that really a big deal? People turn i into a big deal. I respect Jennifer so much for having the courage to confess her own personel sin on national television. And I feel the holy spirit through her music. She would have never done that music if she were’nt filled with the holy spirit. So that means God was in her heart workin through her while she was writing her music, and a the same time gay, and in a same sex relationship. And your saying that a true christian would turn away from sin completely. Well ppl say your not truly saved until you fully turn away. Well she was gay and filled with the holy spirit meaning she was saved this whole time even though she was gay. So maybe there are just different out looks on the whole thing. I;m just giving my own opinion. Cause it hurts me when people continue to make me feel so bad about feeling a certain way that I was born with, wihoug understandinghow we feel. Just try to understand what we go through. I pray everyday that this wickid world turns to God before it too late. And I pray he continues to work in me, and live in me forever. and give me th courage to see things clearer. Please see eye to eye with me Pastor.

    I respect you, and love you as a brother in Christ. And I will pray for your ministry. But please fully investigate what I have told you about. So I can see a brighter picture. I guess you can say I’m a bit confused about the whole thing. But I just wanna be happy, and I wanna make God happy.

    Sincerely -Matt

  • I am not a member of your Church but watched the Larry King show tonight with keen interest. It is sad to see that some who call themselves Christians decide, and like you rightly stated, choose to remain in sin, then look for any means to justify their action. I respect you so much Pastor Bob, for taking this challenge on national TV, before a changing culture more tolerating of everything and anything, to stand for the truth and proclaim it. I thank God for the wisdom He gave you throughout the show to give answers the way you did, quoting several Bible scriptures to support what you were saying. I was really encouraged and challenged by your faith in Christ. Thank God for people like you who stand for the truth.

    There is only ONE GOD, and ONE SPIRIT, and whoever calls upon the name of JESUS, regardless of denomination, should know that the HOLY BIBLE, the true word of GOD, condemns sin. I believe Christianity preaches “Come just as you are”, but once you come to Christ, you cannot remain in your sinful ways. We strive daily to be more like Christ and as such, we renew ourselves in Him and should not be proud and non repentant of our sinful ways. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, but it is left for us to decide whether to remain in sin and distance ourselves from God, or do away with the sin and draw closer to God. Yes, He is a God of Love, He loves the sinner but not the sin.

    I will definitely make it a point to visit your Church when I am around the San Diego area. May the good Lord continue to strengthen you and help you proclaim the Love of Jesus without fear of reprisal, not compromising the truth but standing for what the Word of God states to be the truth.

  • Hi, Just wanted to thank you for standing and standing graciously for the Word of God. I do not think the Bible says we are to ignore sin when we are showing love. You are not ignoring the sin but you definitely expressed and exuded the love of God. Thanks for putting yourself in the line of fire.

  • Well sayd, Pastor, it´s necesary show God´s love and mercy, but not seeling to the world that accept the sin to do not lose sinners.

    Regards from Colombia, Latin America.

  • Pastor,

    I found this blog through a link and knew nothing of you or your ministry, but I wanted to commend your for speaking out the truth in love so well! May the Lord continue to bless your ministry!

  • Pastor Bob,

    I like others visited your blog after seeing a bit of the CNN interview. I worked for a company that helped break Jennifer Knapp as an artist and it really saddens me that she has made this choice. I have a step-son and a nephew who claim to be Christians but have also chosen the homosexual lifestyle. Unfortunately, they both to appear to have joined a cult that arms them with every loophole and argument they think they have found in the Bible to justify their lifestyle. I know I can’t change them as God gives us all free will. Free will to choose him or not. I no longer share the verses in 1 Timothy or Romans with them as they are so defensive. We all have sin in our life. However, I choose to repent and acknowledge it is sin and that is the difference between a true believer and a non-believer. Hebrews 10:26 is the verse I share with anyone who claims to be a Christian but chooses to live the homosexual lifestyle even after reading in the Bible that it is a sin. Hebrews 10:26 says “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins.” That tells me that if a person chooses to live a lifestyle of sin and they know what the Bible says, then God’s grace for them no longer exists. We can’t take away their free will or make the choice for them. All we can do is pray that God has mercy on them.

  • I watched the Larry King show when I woke up at 3 or so and couldn’t sleep. It was really interesting to see how so many people can justify sins, when it is a sin they wish to continue in. Like people I have known who are in adulterous relationships, they say God would want them to be happy. The world loves to edit God’s word to fit their lifestyle, instead of changing their life to fit Him. And they say certain things spoken about, like homosexuality, don’t really mean what was said. Or Baptism, Jesus said we must be baptized for the remission of our sins, but most people either have a different highly edited Bible, or the skip that part on purpose, because it makes some people uncomfortable to think they must do something like be baptized. I sepnt most of my life looking for the truth, raised as a Methodist, then becoming a Baptist as a teenager, then in my twenties, never feeling fulfilled, always questioning, until I found what I was looking for. A church that told the unvarnished truth as it comes straight from the scriptures, no doctrines of men, nothing made up by men, only God’s word. After almost two years of private Bible classes with the preacher, my husband, and myself, one night I was ready to do just what the scriptures says we must do, and I went straight away and was baptized. I have never looked back, it was the best thing I have ever done, and years later, when my son walked down the aisle at church one Sunday, and confessed that he believed in Jesus Christ, and was baptized, I felt my heart would burst. We are still waiting for his father, my husband, to one day get up and make that walk, or call the preacher or one of the elders, and obey the gospel. We pray for him, and thank God he comes to church with us every week.

    Mr. Haggard’s fall from grace didn’t make him more qualified to understand sinners than Jesus who never sinned. That stubborn part of our hearts is what we have to overcome to really do the will of God.

  • Pastor Bob, we were praying for you last night during the show, and we will continue to pray for you. God was with you and you were faithful to the truth. The thing that kept coming to my mind last night was “…contend earnestly for the faith…” – Jude 1:3 In fact, upon looking up the verse, I see that the entire book of Jude is so relevant to the issues surrounding the show last night. Well done, brother.

  • What a bunch of gobbledy gook last night. You were like a dog chasing its tail in attempting to explain that you were not judging her, but somehow this God-given biological trait of Jennifer’s (and of other gays) deserves special attention, and condemnation (whether you use that word or not. Surprisingly, Ted Haggard certainly seemed to capture the essence of Christianity in a far greater sense than you. Like Jennifer, I will pray for you that you might one day fully understand the central themes of Jesus’s teachings and actions, and that you might become a better emulator of them as well.

  • Bob,

    You showed great courage last night to speak the truth in love in a venue you knew would be unaccepting and hostile. We live in an age where all do “what is right in their own eyes”. It took a man of courage to stand for truth knowing the likely reception and response. Well done.

  • We had an interesting group at our home in Texas watching Larry King Live. Our family’s sister (Soncee) attends Pastor Bob’s church and another family member once belonged to New Life Church where Ted Haggard formerly pastored. One family member was a huge fan of the Knapps. We were sickened, saddened, and ashamed that Ted Haggard didn’t outright defend Pastor Bob. Pastor Bob spoke Truth. Everyone has sin, whether it’s lying, stealing, cheating, adultery, etc. However, we shouldn’t give into that tempation everyday of our lives. Therefore, homosexuals have a tough battle to keep from sinning. When they choose to daily give into that sin, they’re sinners. It’s no different from someone resisting the sin of lying, cheating, raping, etc. But, every day one gives that sin over to God and leans on Him is one day more of overcoming the temptation to sin again. Giving into the sin, IS sin. Twisting and spinning Scripture to accept homosexuality is like making every sin on earth okay. Larry King Live was a three-to-one bullying session. Pastor Bob was loving, caring, and didn’t get defensive like the rest of the group. Our family walked away shaking our heads in disbelief that Haggard was once a preacher we listened to and Jennifer Knapp a Christian singer we supported financially. For her to LIE to the Christian community while we made her rich is a disgrace. They’ve done more harm than they’ll ever know to believers of God’s Holy Word. God have Mercy.

  • Pastor Bob,

    Awesome job on Larry King. You definitely stood up for the TRUTH!

  • Bob,

    Larry King was an extremely difficult situation to be in when the other party trys to justify a lifestyle. We tend to make things so compilcated even though God makes it so clear.
    We are all sinners but we need to understand that we should be dead to sin (Romans 6:11-14 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.) and we constantly need to repent (Mattew 3:2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”) of our sins. Repenting is not just at the end of the day. It is constantly throughout the day. Otherwise, we forget by the time we retire for night and go to bed with unconfessed sin.
    We missed an opportunity to convey to the world that although we are all sinners we need to change our ways and make sin less and less of a factor in our lives. Our goal is to eliminate sin so that we can present oursleves righteous to God. To obey what God has instructed us to do. Not to compromise the Word of God. NO exceptions for sin! NO justification for any of us for sin.
    We (all) cannot live a double life because God is not fooled.

  • Hi Pastor Bob,
    I watched you on LK last night and my heart was truly moved by the love and grace you displayed. I am an evangelical christian who is not only struggling with homosexuality but I’m also in a relationship with a woman. For me it’s got nothing to do with the sex but rather the emotional intimacy. I’ve cried out to God so many times to free me from the emotional attachments that I would experience with certain women in my life. I was actively involved in ministry when I fell head over heels in love with a woman and could no longer suppress those feelings. I am married with teenage children. I am no longer involved in church, my husband and I live together but our marriage is destroyed.

    I am told by many that being gay and christian is okay with God. I’m not convinced it’s true but I don’t know what to do. I feel so far away from God right now and my life is a complete mess. Is there hope for me, for my marriage? For those of you who read this, please pray for me and for my family. Please pray for healing. It’s going to take a miracle.

  • Well Done!! You are a great example of gracious courage
    speaking the true in love.
    Thankyou for displaying Him so well.

    Abundant Blessings be upon you.
    a grateful brother

  • @ Bob –

    I saw you last night on Larry King and wanted to encourage you to continue to stand for the truth in an age of deception. You are not alone! God always has a remnant of faithful people who will cry out against sin regardless of the culture of our depraved times. Unfortunately, Ted Haggard (I dare not call him “pastor”) reminds me of the people of Israel in Elijah’s day who wanted to straddle the fence and not take a position in fear of offending anyone on the program (1 Kgs. 18:21). He is the LAST PERSON on earth to ever say what is right or wrong (Rom. 2:21-24).

    Again, be encouraged. Your labor is not in vain in striving to serve the Lord.

  • To “GODKNOWSMYNAME”,

    Praying for you, please read Galatians 5: 16-21, it is clear that those who practice adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God. Adultery is any sexual relationship outside of marriage. And God’s Word is clear that marriage is only between one man and one woman. Live in the Truth of God’s Word and He will work miracles. His Word is the power you need. He can heal your marriage, come back to Him. Find a Bible teaching church that will not only love you but also not pull any punches. I know you have cried out to God but you must step out in faith and trust Him that He will work in your heart to draw you back to Himself. God loves a repentant heart. We are not just called to faith but also to action, as hard as it might be. There is always Hope in Him.

    God bless and thank you for being honest about your struggle.I will be praying.
    Mike

  • Saw you last night on Larry King. You did an excellent job in a difficult situation. Unfortunately they tried to demonize you as would be expected, but the heart of God was evident in what you said.

    Sad thing is what our nation has become. We need a great awakening in this nation to the true heart and presence of the Lord. We are so self centered, self seeking, self pleasing, self indulgent of a culture that these things have become main stream norms. I pray that JK gets a revelation of the Lord’s heart for her. I pray she has an encounter like she has never known before to help her out of the deceptive lifestyle she has CHOSEN.

    The biggest part of the interview that I think needs to be emphasized is that she is deceived. There is no misinterpretation of God’s Word about homosexuality. It is a perversion of what God created man to be. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of it, the New Testament clearly and I emphasize clearly states that it is wrong. There is no room for “interpretation” in the Greek.

    I am not a judgmental person. But, I do judge things right and wrong according to God’s word, as we are directed to do in God’s word. A person who is a believer is to judge what is right and wrong according to God’s word. That doesn’t make a person judgmental in the connotation it was referred too in justifying the lifestyle here. What makes a person judgmental as was referred too, is the heart and what is behind that judgement. In the case of the Lord’s word it is a heart is love. Love for God, Love for His word, and Love for people that God created.

    I have nothing for love for JK, but I do judge her choice of lifestyle in accordance to God’s word as sinful, perverted and incorrect. Just as I would a person doing drugs, an alcoholic, sexually immoral, etc.

    The bigger issue though at hand is, “WHY did she choose this lifestyle? Over the many years I have been in ministry, and counseling many people who have had this type of issue, I have found the “root” of the issue is always, they have been hurt deeply, deeply offended, most have been sexually abused when younger, and they have not forgiven and held offense and not been set free from what happened to them.

    The reason I am sharing this is really for prayer for the root of why she is in this place… I have no idea if this happened to her… but do know, there is a reason she has chosen this lifestyle. Pray for her heart to come to know the delivering power of the Lord.

    If there are any of you out there struggling with this issue. Seek pastoral help. Ask the Holy Spirit why you are having this struggle and to deliver you, heal you, and set you free. Usually there is a root reason as to why you are struggling. Go to a Godly pastor who knows the Holy Spirit, has the heart of Christ and love for God’s people. “The truth shall set you free.”

    Blessings,
    Steve

  • Seriously? You really think this is THAT big of a deal that you go on Larry King to talk about it? Like Jennifer said in the interview you don’t know her… meeting her for dinner years ago does not give you the right to speak out against her.

    She’s a well known christian singer who has an amazing voice and that voice is a gift from god. She’s using this gift from god to spread the love of god to many people, both straight and homosexual.

    For you to even imply that she’s going to hell for being homosexual is a complete joke, you cannot lose your salvation, it’s simply not possible. You can do anything and god will forgive you if you ask. If you repeat this sin over and over and never repent, god won’t like it, but he still forgives.

    evangelicals are typically the most intolerant religious group out there, with the exception of radical islamists. instead of being counter productive with your intolerance, why not preach the good news of jesus christ to people who want to hear it instead of bashing someone who loves god and is a prominent figure in the christian music scene.

    leave her alone and let her do her own thing and live her own life. what she does has no impact on your life so just give it up already.

  • Pastor Bob,
    Thank you for speaking out about Jennifer and her “coming out”. She doesn’t seem to realize, or care about the repercussions that this may cause for some people. It is our duty as Christian to not stumble a brother or sister and she is doing that very thing. I can see people out there who are delicately balanced praying for the Lord to remove their temptations while fighting the temptations in the flesh. So now they hear that it is “OK” to be a Christian and a homosexual at the same time. What does that do to their resolve? Jennifer gets to bear responsiblity for them as well. I will pray for her (this is the first I have heard about it) and it may sound horrible, but she should have stayed “in the closet”. It was the need to make music again that brought her out. So the message is – as it was in the 70’s – if it feels good, do it. I want to try to find a way to get a message to her as well. But I want to thank you Bob for your standing up for the Word. I listen to you every day on KWVE and you are great! God Bless you.

  • I think you have stated very articulately what God says about sin our lives and also about His Love and Forgiveness and His Grace. It is impossible to get across the love you are sharing with out interpersonal relationships with people tho and that is why if you are misjudged at all that you will be. Your truth in love is refreshing and appreciated. Loving people period is what we should be doing, when we love someone and they love us then we can communicate with each other, learn and grow. It will be up to every one who knows the truth in scripture to share their love of God and the truth with each person they love and keep it from being distorted. It is a big responsibility and a cherished trust. Thank you!!!!

  • I saw the show and all I can say is Thank God you stood your ground. From where I was, I could feel the fire you were in brother. It came from all directions – one who knows the truth but has decided to abandon it(Jennifer), one who doesn’t care to know the truth(Larry) and the other who takes the truth and twists it to justify his sins and everyone elses just to appease them(Tim). But God is good! You stood your ground, stood up for what was right and brought it back to The Word. Honestly, I feel sorry for Jennifer, Larry and Tim. Jennifer is obviously misguided. I am angry because she was outright disrespectful to you but also to God. She is obviously in turmoil. May God continue to bless you and your family and may He give you strength to persevere.

  • Bob Ain’t Jesus

    The retro glasses and military-inspired, hipster jacket aren’t fooling me. This is just another old white dude using the Bible to advance a bigoted agenda. Despite ol’ Pastor Bob’s claims to “love” Jennifer Knapp, this looks to me like it has much more to do with garnering praise from the flock then it does with care or concern for another person. Mind your own business, Pharisee.

  • (hypothetical) Sooo, I was doing 20mph over the speed limit and a cop pulled me over and said, “Mam, you were breaking the law.” I kindly told him, “You are judging me and you have no right to do that. You are just a HATER of people who speed!” So I jumped back in my car and took off as fast as i could ignoring what “his” interpretation of the law was. What do you think my consequences will be? Or, will there be any?

    Bob, the Lord BLESS you for upholding the WHOLE truth on LKL! Prov. 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
    I have soo love Jens music. I pray the Lord tarries for her salvation.

  • Pastor Bob: Everything was well said! Too bad LK and JK kept talking over you everytime you had something to say.

    I’m saddened JK kept calling the bible the “sacred text” yet doesn’t believe it was translated correctly by men. God can do anything except control his own document? Those who translated the bible are scholars and have done so through prayer and through the Holy Spirit. It hasn’t been just one dummy sitting in a room reading a sentence and saying…”I think it means this, or that.”

    JK is trying to do what she wants as if she was justifying buying a new car or keeping the old one. We tend to tweak the data in favor of whichever we want.

    Yes, I believe if she was truely saved to begin with, she is still saved. We still love her, she’s still loved by God and she surely would not be turned away from any church. However, society is an enabler, allowing her to believe homesexuality is not a sin.

    We must pray continually God would open her eyes, give her ears to hear and soften her heart and allow us to speak kindly to her, as you tried, but they did not hear.

    Peace be with you and your ministry.

  • on the money with every word and thought. true Godly widsom here. Thank you Bob!

  • Anita Ain’t a Bible Scholar

    Hypothetical: You live in state where the speed limit doesn’t appear on road signs. Rather, it’s tucked away in three or four obscure parts of a complicated book of statutes that was written by forty different authors over a period of thousands of years. Even though the book also mentions hundreds of other traffic infractions–some for things as small as buying the wrong brand of tires–the police in your state are convinced that the speed limit is the most important law on the books. When they pull you over, you ask them which statute you’ve violated. When they quote you the statute in question, you politely point out that they’ve taken the law entirely out of context and appear to be using the law in select ways to punish people that make them uncomfortable. Then the fifty year-old cops go on Larry King dressed like college freshmen and tell the world how you’re going to burn in eternal fire for violating the speed limit, all while claiming to love you. What do you think the consequences will be then?

  • Jeremy, it has impacted me a great deal! Bob NEVER said she was going to hell. Larry asked and Bob’s response was that God judges. I do not know Bob nor have I ever met him in person but it is the resposibility of all believers who are part of the FAMILY of God to SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE. Bob did that. Jen is a sister in the faith. If your biological sibling was crossing the street, listening to music on their ipod and a 18 wheeler truck was speeding out of control down the street they were crossing, and they couldnt hear your screams of warning or the horn of the truck blaring, wouldnt you jump in the street to push your sibling out of the way to save their life? THAT, would be true love. All sin is grevious to God and yes, we all sin, even as seasoned believers. But there is a difference between stumbling into sin that you repent and turn from right away and knowingly and openly living in sin. If Jen is not perfectly clear on how God views the sin of homosexuality, then she is reading a different Bible than im reading. Translations can all be different but that does not change their meaning. Buenos Dias still means the same thing as good morning. So as in the words of Liam Lynch, WHATEVAH!

  • To “Matt R”

    Thank you for your courage, sharing how you feel, and asking so many questions. You clearly are wanting a solution that glorifies the Lord, and though I can not know His mind, I’m sure He delights in that.

    Keep praying, seeking the truth and don’t ever be pursuaded that God doesn’t have control over his own Word. If he needs it to speak to you in a certain way, he will; it will be clear when you open your heart and give him all of you…not just this part or that part of your life.

    Read more of His Word every day than you do these blogs and forums. Satan is everywhere on the internet, you will be easily deceived. Go to the library, a book store, or Christianbook.com and find books about God’s love, trust or even how to arm for battle against satan and his fallen angels.

    YOU must be ready to hear what he has to say. Pray for wisdom and revelation, an open heart, eyes to see and ears to hear. Cry out to God for your understanding.

    I and many others will pray for you continuously. Please believe that.

    Anyone know of some good studies for Matt R?

  • Pastor Bob, Thank you for standing for the truth in God’s word.
    Ted Haggard shame on you. If your still calling yourself a pastor then get back into the word of God and stop trying to justify yourself and look for the lukewarm middle on subjects you are still obviously embattled over.

    Jennifer, you know in your heart of hearts. God will not be mocked.
    Go to the “not so mysterious sacred text” called the orig. Hebrew & Greek.

    Vince

  • Rachelle Crawford

    Thank you, Pastor Botsford for articulating and representing God’s absolute standard in the face of relativism. You shared God’s truth in a kind and gracious manner during your interview on Larry King Live with three people (and many viewers) who have been deceived. May God continue to pour out His grace on you and your family.
    “How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, ‘Your God reigns!’” Is. 52:7
    In His grace and with much gratitude,
    Rachelle Crawford

  • I watched Larry King Live but no captioned. I am deaf myself, I know in ! Corinthians 5 and 6 teach so clear. I wish it was not on tv show. Only meeting at church to encourage Jennifer make repent of her sin. I understand Bob still want to stand on God’s word. Pray for Jennifer and Horizon Christian Church that they still fear God.
    Deaf Hands for Christ
    Perry

  • Bob,

    Thanks for being humble and honest, although you were more or less used as a punching bag (if you ever meet Ben Witherington, ask him about his time on Bill O’Riely).

    Anyhow, taking a long shot here.

    After watching a sound byte of your segment, I have to ask: “How do you assert truth claims in a postmodern context?” When Knapps only direct rebuttal is “You don’t know me?” How do you argue with that “Don’t confuse me with the facts” stuff?

  • Jeremy…

    I don’t know how to respond to Jeremy personally, but I think he has hit the nail on the head. Fine. Homosexuality may not be God’s best plan…but for those of us who struggle with these desires, indeed for all of us who do not fit the tidy definition of the “conservative, North American Christian” (I’m Canadian) what are the alternatives? It’s not just a matter of how are needs are met but how NEEDED or integral we are to the body of Christ.

    This discussion really needs to move away from simply espousing biblical standards and address how real people are going to serve each other in ways that are messy and difficult.

    BTW…I see that not all comments necessarily echo Bob’s perspective. I do appreciate that your moderator has seen fit to publish dissenting but respectful positions.

  • BestOnlineShows.net » Blog Archive » Larry King Goes on Attack for Homosexuality: Asks Pastor Why He Didn’t Like Boys Romantically; Compares Ted Haggard to St. Peter

    [...] it was Botsford, who had previously been somewhat critical of Knapp’s decision to go public with her sexuality, that took the brunt of the questioning from King, a TV anchor not normally known for hardball [...]

  • Pastor Bob,
    Even though you took an unpopular stand, we are not in ministry for popularity. I am thankful there are many pastors who would have said the same thing and not waffle on their convictions.
    What Jennifer needs to understand is that she has given a lot of young adults a reason to say, “It’s ok to come out of the closet, to be gay and a christian at the same time.”
    Whatever happened to “Come out from among them and be separate.”

    Brian Malcom
    Pastor in Gainesville, Ga.

  • Pastor Bob,

    I see that your moderator viewed my first comment as “unacceptable” and let the second pass…perhaps it was my language that prompted that decision. I’m disappointed if that is the case because I think the two posts went hand in hand.

    I apologize if I was less than civil in my initial comments. However, the essential message remains. To speak of “choosing” heterosexuality doesn’t hold much water. Certainly you can decide what to do with your inclinations but I think it’s important to point out that YOU really didn’t have to make much of a choice and to suggest otherwise is at the least not very well thought through and at the worst smug. You were probably thinking on your feet during the interview so I’ll give you that.

    I see a lot of talk on this blog about “courage.” I think this word is tossed about rather flippantly. Really, what IS the cost to you Bob where the rubber meets the road, even in the long term? You’ve returned to your comfortable enclave, church, Christian community and family.

    However, conservative Christian theology has relegated me to the sidelines as Christian gay single, never experiencing the intimacy and deep connection (that you enjoy with your mate along with the relationships that ripple outward from that) that you take for granted? WHO really is bearing the cost?

    It strikes me that you and those of like mind seem OK with engaging with others cut from the same cloth or who those who disagree with you outright. You seem less willing to engage in honest discussion with those within the fold who present you challenges that might move you out of your comfort zone for more than 20 minutes on Larry King.

    Are you and those who condemn all homosexual intimacy willing to step up to the plate and address the needs of those who aren’t plugged into the classic nuclear family or the all American family? For a lifetime?

  • Pastor Bob,
    I watched you on Larry King last night, and I’m so thankful you stayed rooted and faithful. I agree with the previous comment that you were more or less used as a punching bag, but I must say as a bystander new to this particular situation, your poise and your words shone bright; I thought I could see the young woman was definitely affected by your words, while Larry King really remained mostly clueless and Ted Haggard helped her to avoid coming to terms with her lifestyle.
    It’s sad that this young woman will try to justify the life she has chosen and I believe you when you say you love her and will pray for her; I think she believed you too. It’s frightening that because of her popularity as a Christian singer, other people will feel it’s alright to chose this path as well.
    Please keep going forward in truth. I hope that someday all others will understand that truly caring for someone means not standing idly by while they choose a path that will hurt them (and others as well.)

  • Drew:

    Well… I’m in the process of drafting up my own thoughts… coming out of my own of sorts to the community of Christianese and theism…and so, I decided to check out your blog after I saw your Pastor on Larry King…It was pretty disgusting. You were asked point blank how you “knew” you were heterosexual. Your answer? “just knew naturally.” But you don’t afford homosexuals the same luxury? The reason you are attracted to women (and not just a wife) is because they stimulate the hormones and nerves in your brain. You build on those attractions and get further stimulated. That’s about it for “natural”. You were also asked directly (by Jennifer) to answer for the differences in Greek understandings and transliteral definitions for a word some transcripts call “homosexual”. You dodged it. Saying the “Word” is without error. That isn’t what she asked. You were asked about your sin and you stated you were not a sinner. Last I checked, the scriptures counter that statement. You say here you aren’t a bigot, and that you aren’t intolerant. That is absurd. There is no problem with people being brave enough to say they aren’t tolerant. You also said you weren’t judging. Yes you are. Which is fine. Judgment saves our lives. And the bible commands you to judge regardless. You claimed Jennifer had “left”. She countered you then as well reminding you that she never left, never considered herself the prodigal. Not making music or being engaged in a genre or niche industry is NOT leaving the “family”. And she was absolutely correct that it is not you who are to hold her accountable. Read Paul’s letters again if you missed that one. Cast her out from your community and fold all you like, but you are in no authority over her. You say you speak the truth in love and don’t want others influenced by her decisions. Sounded a lot like a story from that bible of yours… when Jesus sat with tax collectors and the disciples rolled their eyes in displeasure. Jennifer made her strongest point when she decided to work within your illogical argument and suggest if homosexuality was no different than any other transgression, why weren’t you the one in the hot seat instead of her for the multitude of transgressions you commit daily. You dodged that one too. But how convenient for you to use her publicity photos in an effort to exploit her name and situation to garner yourself some attention. Did your church request those images for distribution on this blog? If not, consider yourself a hypocrite. After all, theft is a transgression. And thieves don’t get to inherit your precious kingdom of heaven. (that was sarcasm). As for “standing for the truth”. When you can effectively answer for the questions you dodged on King and are addressed here again for you with critical thinking and reasoning skills, then we’ll know it’s “truth” you are addressing and not just your norms and mores that mold into a text you like teaching.

    /rant.

  • Thank you so much for standing up for the truth of the Word of God. I did not think you were judgmental but those who are in error will always try to indimidate you by saying you are judgemental. I was praying for you during the Larry King Live program last night that you would stay strong. It became apparent who else I need to pray for as well. I think you unknowingly solicited a lot more prayers for Jennifer as as as Ted Haggard. He has come a long way but I was so disappointed at his middle of the road position last night. Yes we all need Grace and Love and we also need to be doers of the Word and know the difference between right and wrong.

  • Jeremy, and others like him, my heart goes out to you…and in Jeremy’s case, also to your wife. To deny your sexual identity is to deny who you were created to be. Suicide? No, oh, no! Live! Live authentically, as you were designed by God to live…because God don’t make no junk.

    It will be interesting to see if the rest of my comments are ‘allowed’ to stand. My beliefs today, as a non church-goer, are just as sincerely grounded as they once were, as a fundamentalist Christian. Here goes:

    I once believed as Bob and many of you do, because I was raised to unquestioningly accept the Bible as the complete, literal, inerrant word of God…but it always bothered me that there were so many versions of ‘God’s word’ and so many versions of Christianity. If they were so different from each other, which version was correct? And what about those books left out of the ‘canon’? Why were there two genealogies for Christ, if he was not Joseph’s biological child? Why does Christianity have to rely so heavily on Josephus for proof that Jesus existed? Stuff like that. Questions.

    So, I had doubts…but I soldiered on.

    A few years ago, in an effort to bolster my faith, I began to research outside the narrow reading list of approved commentaries and sermons endorsed by my fundamentalist Christian church. I looked exhaustively into biology, history, ancient literature (myths and legends), other religions (such as Islam and Judaism, as well as ancient religions)…and what I found led me, in time and with great heartache, out of organized religion entirely.

    I still believe in Divinity…just not ‘God’ or “Jehovah” or “Allah” or even “Amen-Rah” as described in various world religions. To me, those manifestations of Divinity are very small, limited by ancient man’s understanding but written as if ‘fact’…books which were later redacted by zealots with their own agendas.

    The more science explores our known and unknown universe, the more it becomes evident that to continue to accept the centuries-old dogma of “the Scriptures” as ‘complete, literal, and inerrant’, one has to put on blinders and pretend the Bible, the Koran, the Torah…exist in a vacuum, completely removed from the context of other religions, world history, and the discoveries of science/medicine. I can’t call such deliberate blindness ‘faith’…and I can’t call it ‘righteous’ to bind taboos of ancient middle-eastern cultures onto homosexuals.

    I am not saying that sexually ‘anything goes’…because clearly there are some sexual desires and behaviors which exploit other people or creatures…but if one is biologically inclined toward one’s own gender, how can that be labeled a ‘lifestyle choice’? I never ‘chose’ the ‘lifestyle’ of a heterosexual…I was biologically predisposed to be attracted to the opposite sex. Some people have traits of both genders! All people have distinct variances from every other person…there is no single variance to measure all others by as being the ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ variance.

    With such a dazzling variety in the human condition, people born so very different from each other, with such utter complexity in nature…how can human beings (in the name of their Creator, no less!) point to one narrow standard of God’s creation (because some ancient texts say so) and say that “THAT” is the ONLY way human beings are allowed to be and anything else is sinful and the work of the Devil. Really? A baby born with both testes and a uterus is the work of the Devil? How about a man with crushed testicles? Or a person born to unmarried parents? Do we prevent these people from entering ‘the sanctuary’ today? Should they EVER have been excluded?

    Can honest people really apply the ‘Devil’ superstition or the ‘unworthy to enter’ standard to homosexuals and not to these other human differences?

    Can honest people really insist that God was somehow mistaken in creating homosexuals and that the vast tapestry of human differences are not ALL somehow part of his plan? Is God in control or not? Maybe human beings got it wrong all those centuries ago and are still getting it wrong today.

    Listen to this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.

    To that I say, ‘ALL the works of God’…even those that are not like me.

  • I was delivered completely from homosexuality when I became a Christian. I remember saying a sinners prayer, confessing my sin, forgiving the men I slept with, confessing Jesus as ‘Lord’, and recieving him as Lord and Saviour. This is what my repentance and belief looked like, and He instantaniously miraculously delivered my soul. Homosexuality is also mentioned as a sin in 1 Cor. 6:9. As a man thinketh in his heart so is he/she. Pray for Jennifer Knapp.

  • Bob, great job standing up for God’s truth about homosexuality, that was a tight spot. What’s with Haggard not calling homosexuality a sin?

  • Thank you Ryan! I really appriciate that, and It means alot that you careI totally see God in you!
    It kinda irratates me how some gay people get so offended when Christians are just trying to speak the truth. Yes I’m gay, but I don’t get so offensive. I get a little irratated when christians judge me, or they can’t understand what I’m going through. All I want is to be happy. I have been going through a depression for the past 5 years dealing with this. As of right now I’m pretty comfortable with my sexuality, although my family still does not approve of it. I just don’t know anymore whats goin on? I’m clear of what it says in the bible. But what if we are just mis-understood about it? What if just means the sex part in homosexuality? I’m not a lustful person at all. I’m just attracted to males. I can’t help that feeling? So how is that sinful? I don’t wanna force myself into liking girls if I can’t. I just don’t like girls. And if I try not to like boys than I’m not being true to myself right? For some reason I feel like maybe we have mis-understood it a little? I wish the bible talked more about homosexuality. For instance stuff on love between the same sex, or loving anyone. Or maybe it more on how people will battle with homosexulaity, so try to change. It does not say anyhting about how maybe we were like this since we were vere young. I mean what if it was just a chemical inbalance. Science has proved that. Or what do u guys have to say to transexuals? To me thats disgusting, but lets look at the logic. People like that feel they were born in the wrong body. hat when they were in the mothers whomb some genetic problem went wrong causing them to feel more like a girl, or more like a boy? Same thing with homosexuality maybe the brain was programmed differently causing one to feel attraction to the same sex? This all just drives me nuts. I’m so curious to find out the truth behind this mysterious issue. I want to go to heaven. I wanna live eternally with Jesus forever. But I don’t feel like I’m strong enough to turn away from the attraction I have for males. Cause thats just how I am. I can’t help it like I said. It’s a big chance I understand to live a life like that. So basicly I agree with you who say it’s wrong, or I should change. But what if I can’t? I like guys to me thats normal! If I change than I would be living a lie. I would be lying to everyone and myself. Does’nt god want to see me happy, and being who he made me? I can still serve God, and be his servant, but at the same time date a guy right? How am I commiting a sin so bad there? If I meet a guy who loves God, and is saved like me, and we both live a Christian life how is that wrong? God wants to see us live for him, and thats what I would be doing. People sin everyday. Homosexuality is just as bad as lying right? Ok well christians I’m sure sin everyday. So whats makes homosexuality so bad, when eeryone sins everyday? I know its a chance I’m takin according to you who say it’s wrong. But I wanna live a life with a guy. and I still wanna serve God. There has to be some way that that can work. I dont wanna make the wrong decision and be with a guy and end up in hell, but then I dont wanna not date a guy and be sad and lonly. I mean what if in the end we found out it was’nt as bad or it was’nt wrong or maybe we mis-understood it, and than I would regret my whole life of being single when I could of been happy with a guy. Or it could be the other way around maybe it was worse than I thought, and I don’t make it to heaven. I’m put in a difficult situation,
    At least I wanna live for God, and serve him forever. But I REALLY LIKE GUYS, can’t help it. I just dont know what to do honestly. I guess I wanna hear what I wanna hear. but I probably never will. But at the moment I am single, so if you say it’s a sin than Im not acting upon it now than I’m ok right?

    Please feed me some truthful, and obvious logical advice!

    Thank you. And Ryan I really appriciate you man, I will be praying for you too. and may God Bless All Of You :)

  • Out Of Curiousity…Is There Any Male Homosexual Christians On Here Like Me? We May Be Able To Understand Eachother Better!

  • Someof you say there is a root as to why I am or anyone who is gay gay. Well sinc I was in 1st grade I knew I was different. What does that tell you? I even heard my family talkin about me one time when I was about 7 saying “I think matt is gay”. Thats killed me when I heard that. For many its a choice. In my own life I honestly think I was born like that. Since I was like 9 I had a ttraction towards males. Thats was even before I went through puberty, and had sexual thoughts. Explain this to me? I’m a Christian, And I’m saved. But I just like guys. Its easy for people who are not gay to tell us its so wrong, or make us feel bad. But just imagine you were in our shoes. Imagine you were gay, and could not help the fact that you liked the same sex, and people made you feel bad because of it, or told you “CHANGE NOW” whe its not that easy. Its like a straight person trying to turn gay. You can’t. Same for us. Sure I can try to turn away from this. But I will just be living a lie. and I probably won’t ever be happy cause I will never get to be with the guy of my dreams. Which I pray for God to bring me. god has blessed me in numerous ways, and he lives in me. I know it. And I am Saved! But I just like boys. Just like you guys who are straight like gilrs. Jennifer is saved too. Her music has empowered me. I feel the holy spirit through her music. But she cant help what she is attracted too. How does that make us not a christian? You think I choose to be gay? You think I chose for everyone one at my school since I was in elementary to tease me, and hurt me. Calling me names like fag, queer, homo…words that I did’nt even understand? Why whould I choose to go through all that humilty, and hurt? I even had to drop out of school due to all that torture. I am currently getting my GED, and almost done. But still why would I choose to be different than every other boy? I did’nt. I could’nt help that I acted more feminin than other boys. Or that I liked guys. You must all see the realization behind our homosexual feelings. And background. What is the truth??? I need to know.

    Trust me I want to liv a life that is pleasing to God. But I’m still gay, and I can’t just stop it. It’s easier said than done.

    But Gos is, and will remain to be ruler of my life forever. I just need logical explanations to homosexuality!!!!

    Thanks.
    -Matt :)

  • Hi Matt,

    You asked what is truth? God is truth, God’s Word is truth and it is very clear what He says in His Word. We all have things we struggle against, mine was addiction. But until I completely surrendered to God’s will for my life, I could not stop. I can’t imagine how hard all of this has been for you but maybe by having these feelings, God is calling you to a life of celibacy. I don’t know or pretend to know what God has planned for you. I know He loves you and is willing to forgive you but He also says that those who practice adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God. Adultery is any sexual relation outside the bond of marriage. God also tells us that marriage is only between one man and one woman. How you overcome it is between you and the Lord but the Bible is clear it is not permitted in so many passages. I will pray for you Matt.

    God Bless,
    Mike

  • Bob…I read your article, and heard much of what you said on Larry King, and I genuinely believe that you are a man of integrity. As a fellow follower of Christ, I understand your heart, your logic, and the theology upon which both are based. I can also say with a great deal of certainty that you have never dug into the the original text and context of the Scriptures that seemingly pertain to this “struggle” as deeply as someone has who has walked this gut-wrenching walk firsthand.

    Do you people realize how many suicides occur each year because of the kinds of things you casually throw up on message boards like this one? I dare you…any one of you…to devote even just two weeks of your life to studying the context and language in which the New Testament was written, and to then toss out your opinions with such fervor. In short, you won’t be able to.

    Please, please, PLEASE stop speaking in such certain terms about that which you are almost completely ignorant. If I hear one more person say how “clear” the Bible is on this issue, I’m going to scream. It is not clear. It just appears that way in our extremely modern but completely inadequate English translations. That’s not rationalization, but rather just a view that has been birthed out of hours upon hours of study and research. Don’t believe me? Dig for yourself.

    Every time you speak, you kill off a little piece of one of God’s beloved children. Is that what you want? For the love of God, please stop. I’m begging you.

    in Christ,

    Matt M.

  • Thank you Bob for representing the Christian Community so well on Larry King Live. I watched it with my wife and were wondering how they were going to portray Jennifer and being a Christian, and were very pleased to see a pastor on there, and even more pleased to hear what you had to say!
    Very well put! Thanks again.

  • Pastor Bob,
    I appreciate what your conviction to stand for the truth of God’s Word. I know you were accused of being judgmental and I didn’t find that to be true when I watched CNN. I’m heartbroken over this. I’ve been tempted with a lot of perverted feelings in my life. There were times when I gave into temptation; gave into the feelings. That’s a hook behind the worm. Satan wants us to justify sin because it is tempting. Like the prodigal son. He had a blast until he ended up broke and hungry. We all are tempted. We all sin. It breaks my heart when a Christian gets on tv and tries to take a stand for sin and try to pass it off as love. “This is love for God: to obey his commands.” 1 John 5:3. I know that God can work through a bad situation to bring about good. Like Jonah hopping on a boat and the sailors believing in God because of a storm. I just pray that God will work through this situation to reach people. Thank you pastor Bob for your dedication to God, His love, and His Word. God bless! Praying for you and your ministry.

  • Dear Matt R.

    Just a few verses in the Bible changed my life and brought me to a place of freedom in Christ. I believe with my whole heart that if you will commit to spending time in God’s word and in prayer on a daily basis (as much as possible), you will know the truth. God promises in His word, that when we seek Him with our whole heart, we find Him. I perceive that you want love, acceptance and happiness. What Christ has for you goes beyond all those things. Keep reading His word.

  • Thank you for so lovinging standing up for truth. We need Men of God who speak the truth and do not waver. Our Nation is going down a path of Godlessness. I find it so sad and can’t imagine all the emptiness out there. Oh if only they knew the power and freedom of a repentent heart. I pray for people struggling with homosexuality and that they know a life of peace with Christ Jesus.

  • Pastor Bob, I happened to see the Larry King Show last night with a friend of mine. I just wanted to thank you for standing for the truth of Scripture, mainly its sufficiency and inerrancy. It amazes me that you were able to balance grace and straight-forwardness in your conversation with Jennifer. And I also thank the Lord for using you to proclaim the truth the only way it ought to be proclaimed– in love. Just from reading through a few of the previous posts I can tell that the Christian community is supporting your comments. “He who has knowledge spares his words, And a man of understanding is of a calm spirit.” (Prov. 17:27) This is the exact godly character I saw in your responses last night. So God bless you and I will continue to pray for your ministry and that you will continue to “contend earnestly for the faith.” (Jude 3)

    Gunnar

  • Thank you Mike. I really appriciate it.
    It’s just like I feel like I’ m not strong enough to quit. It’s like I’m being told not to be me. I can;’t help that I feel the way I do. I really don’t wanna be single the rest of my life. But I just can’t like girls. To me thats weird. Why are people Gay in the first place? I’m still confused on that matter. I don’t wanna hurt God at all. I don’t wanna have sexual sin with another guy. I would like to be in a relationship with a guy, and than maybe look into that. Just like a stright guy would with a girl. But you sad marriage is only between a guy and a girl. But why am I gay? I most certainly did not choose it. And nothing ever happend me as a child to make me turn this way. It’s just how my brain functions. When I see good lookin guys I’m attracted. It’s something that just happends, just like when a guy looks at a girl. They are intentionally. Just how I feel. It sucks that it has to be a sin. Cause than I must change or I can’t go to heaven :( but I wanted ti be with a guy cause that would make me happy. I just feel like I’m going crazy. What would happen if I lived a life in which I serve God still, and I’m saved, but also date a guy, and I’m in a commiting relationship? Am I takin a chance. I mean why would God allow me to go to hell or anyone to go to hell if I’m saved, and love him, and serve him? The only thing Im doing wrong is being married to a guy. If I’m not having sex with different people, but staying faithful to one person how is that still sinning. I wanna understand the truth behind the sacred text like Jennifer was saying. I would never choose this. I mean honestly what if homosexuality is really a chemical imbalance? Or what if we misunderstood the bible. How do we fully comprehend it? I understand that marriage is between a male and a female. But why does’nt the bible talk about how people are gay and how they are and why? That would give me so much more info on understanding. I just really wanna got to heaven. I DO NOT WANT TO GO TO HELL. THATS MY BIGGESR FEAR. Bu I’m put in such a hard situation you know?

    Any one feel free to give me advice. Including you Mike.

    Thanx
    -Matt

  • Hello To You All. I Would Greatly Appriciate It “If You Want” To Befriend Me On Facebook. It Would Be Great To Have You All As Friends On There. I Need Christian Friends. I Also Need Friends That Have Overcome Homosexuality. Because You Can Understand Me, And Help Me More. Here Is My Link
    http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1394296136&ref=profile

    Please Add Me. Thanks. If It Deos’nt work, please search Matthew Roybal on Facebook. I’m wearing an Ed Hardy shirt in my pic just so you know.

    Thanx :)

  • Just One Quick Question. Ok You Say Being Homosexual Is Adultery. Ok Well Thats Only If Your Having Sex Right? Well What If I Were To Date A Guy But Never Have Sex? Even Though That Would Suck Is that Still Sinning? Is Oral Sex Still Considered Sex?

    It Just Kinda Irratates Me When People Think Of Homosexuality They Think Of Just The “SEX” Part. But It’s Deeper Than That. Well For Me It Is. I Could Careless About Sex If I Had To And I Can. I Like Guys Cause I’m Attracted, Cause They Are Good Looking, And I Feel I Need A Protector. Thats Just How I Feel. When I Think Of Guys, I Don’t Think Of Sex. I Think Of How Amazing It Would Be To Be With That Person, And Because I Truly Love Them.

    Is That Still Sin? You Tell Me?

    And One More Lol. Sorry. But I’ve Always Wondered…Is Masturbation A Sin? I Ask Because Is’nt It Better To Masturbate, Than Engage In The Actual Act Of Sex? My Friend Was Asking Me And I Want To Fill Him In. But I’m Also Curious?

  • Pastor Bob,
    I’m a Cal student and just happened to catch the replay of your interview last night. I loved it so much, I even stayed up until 3am watching it! I just wanted to thank you for going on the show and I thank God that you were the pastor that was addressing these touchy issues. I loved everything that you said because I know that your heart is in the right place and that you know, understand, and live the word of God. I found it extremely refreshing to watch someone so convicted of God’s word, fearlessly standing up for the truth. You were just so calm throughout the entire interview, even though everyone else seemed pretty tense. I could just tell from your voice and demeanor that God was right by your side. I know that a lot of things said probably upset a lot of people, but I am so glad that the truth got out. Who ever said that sometimes the truth isn’t hard to swallow? I am so happy that there are people out there who aren’t afraid to stand up for what they believe in or maybe be a little bit politically incorrect if it means that they are sharing the word of God.

    -Amanda

  • Hey Matt. M Are you Homosexual too?

  • Thank You Calley. That Was So Beautiful. Really. Just Pray For Me That I’m Strong Enough Too. I’m Only 17. It’s Difficult Age, Especially When Your A Teen In This Generation, Sin Is Running Rampid. And You Feel So Tempted To Do What The Other Teenagers Are Doing You Know. I Mst Be Strong And Have Stronger Faith. Please Pray For Me. Thank You So Much.

    God Bless You!

  • Last point. As long as you know God, regardless of who you are, you are sinless…which means you include all of things that include all to gather the best view of god. For the opposite, it is obvious when someone is intentionally excluding others and since the behavior makes it impossible to know god it is the sin and it doesn’t matter what form it is expressed as.

  • Travelingman Rick

    For what it is worth Pastor Treason would be the act of denying our gay selves. God made us who we are, this is not a choice. It is not like I woke up one day and said I want to choose a life where I get spit upon by half the people in the world who would like to see me and other gays wiped off the face of the earth.

    Shame on you for not having an open mind. Being gay is no more a sin than eating shell fish. It is no wonder that the LGBT community suffers a spiritual void. I myself gave up on your god a long time ago. If there were a god he would certainly not condone people like you spreading your bigotry.

  • I find it amazing that people on the Gay agenda, will say :stop saying this or that because of suicides.”.. if your born that way… as you say, then why such a conflict? I have yet to have any conflict or thoughts of suicide because of things people have spoken about on my hetrosexual life such as staying pure (which I struggled to do in my life at various points, but I didn’t say i was just born that way I cant stop masturbating!) or that adultry is wrong or don’t lust… ..There is plenty in the “sacred text” – (what a degrading term to use) against homosexual lifestyle – it was written during the most hedonistic permissive time- most I have counseled were gay because of deep hurts- rejection from Fathers, Mothers, abuse, etc.. … not born that way- but few would admit to their life of denial and the identity I don’t think any gay radical would say that the Bible was written as a conspiracy only against the homosexual lifestyle..

    Read the “Sacred Text” in Romans Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

    I just wish someone would have looked at Larry King and said… Larry how does your wife feel about adultery or is that like a 4 fingered sinner? just abstract in your mind also.. I doubt your Wife feels it some outdated sacred text..

  • The new heavens and new earth will be filled with people who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Such a paradoxical truth testify to the end result of the purity brought on by much pain and sacrifice in the life of a believer. To overcome something which God abhors is the greatest test in the life of a believer. Are homosexuals, persons who love having sex with children or persons who love extra-marital affairs etc and claim to know and love Jesus willing to sacrifice their passions for his glory?

  • Pastor Bob, Thank you for speaking the truth!!! I watched you on Larry King and I have to say that I was so happy to see you standing up for the truth and using scripture after scripture! Some people say that they are Christians but yet they compromise with the world and with sin. Yes, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God but that is why we repent and turn away..we dont justify the sin because then its like putting the Lord Jesus back on the Cross! I am very proud of you! Keep on standing firm for the truth. I know God is happy to see a Pastor like you who is not compromising with sin! But you are correcting those the Lord loves and trying to bring them to the light! Thank you and God bless

  • Pastor Botsford,
    I saw your interview on Larry King Live, and want to thank you for being willing to speak truth in a hostile environment. It could not have been easy, but many of us watching were encouraged by your boldness AND the love you displayed. May God bless you for your obedience. I am thankful for leaders and shepherds who remain faithful in a society that wants to sugar-coat sin.

  • So, the moderator EDITS my comments, not only to be jumbled together but also to post to the wrong person?

    Nice.

  • Here is the post, WITHOUT edits:

    Well… I’m in the process of drafting up my own thoughts… coming out of my own of sorts to the community of Christianese and theism…and so, I decided to check out your blog after I saw your Pastor on Larry King…

    It was pretty disgusting.

    You were asked point blank how you “knew” you were heterosexual. Your answer? “just knew naturally.” But you don’t afford homosexuals the same luxury? The reason you are attracted to women (and not just a wife) is because they stimulate the hormones and nerves in your brain. You build on those attractions and get further stimulated. That’s about it for “natural”.

    You were also asked directly (by Jennifer) to answer for the differences in Greek understandings and transliteral definitions for a word some transcripts call “homosexual”. You dodged it. Saying the “Word” is without error. That isn’t what she asked.

    You were asked about your sin and you stated you were not a sinner. Last I checked, the scriptures counter that statement.

    You say here you aren’t a bigot, and that you aren’t intolerant. That is absurd. There is no problem with people being brave enough to say they aren’t tolerant. You also said you weren’t judging. Yes you are. Which is fine. Judgment saves our lives. And the bible commands you to judge regardless.

    You claimed Jennifer had “left”. She countered you then as well reminding you that she never left, never considered herself the prodigal. Not making music or being engaged in a genre or niche industry is NOT leaving the “family”.

    And she was absolutely correct that it is not you who are to hold her accountable. Read Paul’s letters again if you missed that one. Cast her out from your community and fold all you like, but you are in no authority over her.

    You say you speak the truth in love and don’t want others influenced by her decisions. Sounded a lot like a story from that bible of yours… when Jesus sat with tax collectors and the disciples rolled their eyes in displeasure.

    Jennifer made her strongest point when she decided to work within your illogical argument and suggest if homosexuality was no different than any other transgression, why weren’t you the one in the hot seat instead of her for the multitude of transgressions you commit daily. You dodged that one too.

    But how convenient for you to use her publicity photos in an effort to exploit her name and situation to garner yourself some attention. Did your church request those images for distribution on this blog? If not, consider yourself a hypocrite. After all, theft is a transgression. And thieves don’t get to inherit your precious kingdom of heaven. (that was sarcasm).

    As for “standing for the truth”. When you can effectively answer for the questions you dodged on King and are addressed here again for you with critical thinking and reasoning skills, then we’ll know it’s “truth” you are addressing and not just your norms and mores that mold into a text you like teaching.

    /rant

  • Matt R,

    All the truth you need is found in God’s Word and in prayer, He CAN deliver you from this but it is about full trust in Him, Full surrender, complete self sacrifice. We all “want” to sin, it is the flesh which is sinful. But the abundant and fulfilling life is found in serving Christ. That is especially true when it’s extremely difficult. You asked about just dating, but are you saying you would be dating without lusting and desiring to have sex with a man? I think we both know that is not going to happen, not to mention that if he is lusting for you, you are causing him to stumble, which is also a sin.I think masturbation falls into the same catergory, lust is still adultery. I so admire your desire to know what God expects in this area. Seek Him in His Word and in prayer, and ask for His deliverance. Nothing is impossible with God, we just so often can’t allow Him to have control because of our selfish wants and desires. I will keep praying for you and feel free to e-mail me at mzpayton342000@yahoo.com. I don’t check it every day but will make sure I am looking for your e-mails.

    God Bless you,
    Mike

  • David and Alice

    Surfing the channels the other day and saw you on Larry King and was thankful for your faithfullness to the Gospel and your Love for Jennifer and the world . Sadly dissapointed in Ted Haggard where many have said he was working on restoration he truly showed were he is at , and yes I love him and will pray for him as for Jennifer . It was funny (pun) how all three tried to gang up on you , I guess they thought you were all alone ! . The abscence of the Holy Spirt for a non-believer or the total grieving of him by a believer keep them from the truth and understanding the word of God . Love you ,In Christ David p.s yes I’ll probably get attacked for my grammar and sentencing , lack of paragrahs etc. crazy christians can’t even write a letter , oh well!

  • To Mike Zanella,

    Thank you for responding to my post. While I understand you mean the best for me and Matt R., it’s not just about full surrender and complete self sacrifice. Been there, done that many, many times over and nothing changed for me. I still found myself struggling with strong emotional attachments to certain women in my life and I hurt terribly because of it. I was used and abused by some of those women (one of them a pastor) not sexually, but because she knew I cared deeply for her she used those feelings to take advantage of me in other ways. You have no idea how many times I’ve asked God to help me, to heal me, to “set me free” from this, and nothing changed.

    You make it all sound so straightforward, so easy, but it’s far from it. To one who is struggling with homosexuality it feels like an impossibility. For years I’ve asked God to “fix me” and a friend recently told me “How can God fix something that’s not broken? You are not broken!” The tears ran down my cheeks when she said that to me. I’ve always felt as though I was broken. As though something was terribly wrong with me. I’ve been to Exodus and other same-type ministries for help. I have yet to meet someone who is completely free from this. Not one!

    There’s so much more I could add but enough said for now.

    God Help US! All of US!

  • Matt R.

    Yes, I am gay, bud, and my relationship with God is stronger than it has ever been.

    I would encourage you to stop wasting your time with the people on this site. While many of them do, most likely, care about your welfare, they are unknowingly instilling a sense of shame in you about who you are that will permeate your entire existence.

    God is wayyyyy bigger than your sexuality. My prayer for you is that you would look to God with open palms, asking that he guide you in whichever direction he wants you to go. Yes, the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe that wholeheartedly. But anyone schooled in linguistics (the study of words and their meanings) will tell you that the written word is a complex thing, and taken out of context, can be quite misleading.

    God bless you, Matt. ;)

  • Pastor Bob,

    I am proud of your courage and standing up for Truth. When I was a young girl, Jennifer Knapp’s CD was given to me as a christmas present. I fell in love with her music. I am 22 years old now. I am not a music person really, but for some reason all my life growing up, her CD’s have spoke to my heart. I could tell you story after story on moments I would slip in her CD and would have intimate times with the Lord. I don’t know if I can listen to her CD’s in the same way…

    When I saw the news on her homosexual lifestyle, I can’t tell you the disappointment I had. I watched the interview. I was thankful for your standing up for Scripture. I agree with you. There is no tolerance for this sinful lifestyle that she is choosing. I loved the way you described the difference of her sin and yours. She chooses to remain in it, and you work to remain repentant of your sins.

    Thank you again for your boldness. It has inspired me, even, to do the same. You are setting the correct example for Believers to follow. Be bold about the Truth, and no matter the persecution, hold true to the Scripture.

    God bless,

    Rachel

  • David and Alice

    Don’t know where my other commet went oh well! just grateful God put on your heart to share with the Jennifer and the world the truth which only understood by the Holly Spirit and we pray that He will convict Jennifer ,Ted who are defintely grieving Him if they are true believers , and the world who argues the understanding of scripture with out Christ in their lives and the power of the Holy Spirit , Love you , In Christ David

  • Well said!

  • The truth about some human beings is that we have so limited the Creator’s power that we have spurned Him and settled for the unclean. As a result we have decided to call good evil and evil good.
    Nature teaches us that some things are simply against the norm. In a little community on the island where I live, there is a man who was delivered from bestiality. He claimed he grew up with a sexual appetite for goats, cows, donkeys and pigs. He never sought help until a man whose donkey he had molested attacked him and then handed him over to the police. But when he served time and came out of prison he came to understand that he was harboring unnatural passions. It was just not natural for a man to have sex with animals no matter how much love and affection he had for them. But he labored with MUCH FASTING AND PRAYER (some demons goeth not out but by much fasting and prayer) and with the help of a church community he was finally delivered. I write like this because there are some who need to be saved with fear out of the fire hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

  • Read the blog…watched the show…thought about both…

    I can honestly say that, as a Christian who has been struggling with same sex attraction since I was very young, I’m glad that some of you people weren’t the people I sought counsel from when I made my decision three years ago to live a celibate life. For people so concerned with sharing the “truth in love” your comments are very low on love.

    To Pastor Bob…you should have declined the interview. Your post here is much more effective than your appearance on LKL. You were treading on thin ice from the beginning, but then when you pulled out the ubiquitous “Adam and Steve” line…well, lets just say anyone who MIGHT have been giving you a chance was lost at that point.

    I pray that none of you ever have to face something this painful in your lives…and I mean that. Would that life were as simple as you want it to be!

  • To GODKNOWSMYNAME,

    Please know I come from a position of love for all of you struggling with this and I am glad to see your openness and honesty about it. First let me say God’s Word IS very straightforward, especially when it comes to sexual sin. Also, I would never try to make it sound easy, because overcoming deep rooted sin never is. But I also don’t come from a position of not undestanding the struggle. Throughout my life I struggled with alcoholism, cocaine, pot, LSD, mushrooms, pornography, multiple female partners, you name it. And I always had reasons why I couldn’t change, why I did what I did. Was I pre-dispositioned to fall into a life of addiction, maybe so… but that also does not exclude me from judgement. It doesn’t mean God’s cool with it. But when I truly wanted to change and truly surrendered to God, He delivered me. Was it easy, No. Is it still easy, No. But we are to be crucified with Christ and die to ourselves everyday. It’s not about Us, it’s all about Him. He created us, He created this world and the universe and He CAN do anything, including delivering you from homosexuality. I do not judge, just say that God’s Word is clear it is a sin and if we continue to practice it, we will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. It is spoken of in Galatians 5 and 1 Cor. 6. I am praying for all of you who have this struggle. Just imagine how powerful your witness for His power and mercy and grace will be if you let Him deliver you. He is our Deliverer, our strong tower, our refuge…. but we have to let him be those things, He will not force it upon us. May God bless you and deliver you, that your witness for Him may bring Him the glory.

    Mike

  • Hi Mike Zanella. Thank you so much for your advice! It ruly means so much to me. This is probably the biggest struggle I have ever dealt with in my entire life. Because it consumes most of my life. I just ant to be happy. But I your right. I must seek God more. And maybe I don’t. I try to pray, and read my bible everyday. But sometimes I don’t. I pray that I can hae stronger faith. Sometimes it’s hard cause I get so side tracked. It’s so hard for me to understand that homosexuality is a sin. Because to me it seems so normal. All I want is to be happy. And I don’t ever want to lie to myself. Also does the new testament talk about homosexuality? Oh and Mike do u have a facebook?

    Thanks
    -matt r

  • I just don’t understand how someone could be cured from homosexuality. I don’t lust after men. I just like them. If I change would’nt I be lying to myself? Noone would believe me because veryone already knows that I’m gay. It’s just something I can’t help? I love God so dearly. I pray, and I go to church, and I serve him. And I renounce my faith as much as possible. I am born again. The reason of my confusion is people say I can’t have homosexual lifestyle. I’m onlt 17 and hae not yet met a guy yet. But I have been with guys who have took advantage of me. And took my virginity as a young age. And I have asked God to forgive me for that. And I don’t just want sex. I want a guy who will love me, who loves God. And who will be a man to me. Why would God allow me to go to hell if I’m saved, and love him so much? How is something wrong with me, when I am just this way and can’t help it? I’ve been this way since I was so young. Innocent and did’nt even know about sex.

  • Well Said Matt M. Well Said.
    Matt do you have a facebook or twitter by any chance? So we can be friends on there, and keep in touch? That would great.
    You seem like a very intelligent person. And when I see someone like you who is homosexual, but yet is still so close with God, and you know quite alot about is word I highly admire that, and admire you. And that shows me that maybe it’s not impossible :)

    Keep in touch Matt!

  • Dearest Pastor Bob,

    Thank you so much for standing up for truth and righteousness. We love you. The bible says in Matthew 5:10-12, “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake, rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuterd the prophets who were before you”.

    Thank you for standing strong for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! God bless you!

  • Hello Jason do you have a facebook link too?
    You seem like you know alot, and I respect that!

  • Hi Matt R,

    I’m not sure if there are two Matt R’s on here or if you just posted back to back messages. Nonetheless, yes the New Testament talks about Homosexuality. Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5. My suggestion as some earlier is to fast and pray, stay in the Word. God will hear you and answer you. It will probably be a life long struggle as denying myself and drugs and alcohol is for me. We are called to die to ourselves every day. That means our wants and desires and desire what God does. The only man you need in your life is the Man, Jesus Christ. He can fulfill all the needs you have if you seek Him and His will. I don’t have facebook, but posted my e-mail in here earlier. If you didn’t get it or can’t find it, let me know. I am more than willing to continue the conversation. Though some may say I or others do not speak in love, the love is Truth. God is Love, He is truth and His Word is truth. That is all I speak, not my opinion but His Word.

    Mike

  • Thanks for the blog post. Frankly, I wish more of this (especially your personal experience with counseling homosexuals) came out in your Larry King interview. I think that it would have added another dimension to your point. Blessings on your ministry.

  • Matt R,

    Hey, have a question for you, are you local(San Diego area)? I would love to meet with you and have coffee or something. We could sit down face to face, talk and look at God’s Word together. Anyway, continuing to pray for you.

    Mike

  • Mike Zanella…

    You said, ” Just imagine how powerful your witness for His power and mercy and grace will be if you let Him deliver you. He is our Deliverer, our strong tower, our refuge…. but we have to let him be those things, He will not force it upon us. May God bless you and deliver you, that your witness for Him may bring Him the glory.” My question for you is this — is not my testimony just as powerful because I am a man who struggles with this on a daily basis and chooses to live a life that is faithful to scriptural mandate? My testimony is not powerful because God has not made me straight?

    I feel for you…truly. You honestly believe I still have these feelings because I haven’t “let Him” deliver me? You think I haven’t spent countless hours on my face begging, crying and pleading with God to free me from this torment?

    You pompous, arrogant, self-important elitist! I dare say my testimony and my witness is far more powerful than yours because I have the courage to be honest and transparent about my struggles rather than cloaking myself in a paper thin, false righteousness!

    Let Him deliver me? So, I suppose I just haven’t said the magic faith filled words that will unleash His deliverance in my life? No, sir. I believe in God’s omnipotence and omniscience. I believe He ALONE sets the course of human events and that He ALONE determines His Will.

    Let Him deliver me? Is that what Paul should have done with the thorn in his flesh? Paul should have just LET God deliver him?

    Mike, when are you going to LET Him deliver you from your desire for alcohol and drugs that you spoke of in your reply to Matt R? Or, I suppose homosexual desires are the only desires we must LET Him deliver us from?

    I pray to God daily that He gives me His strength to stay faithful to His word and that through His strength I can some how find a way to find my way through this hellish torment. I pray daily that God would show me the larger purpose in my suffering and I pray daily that when I run across people like you, Mike, who think they have Him figured out enough for the rest of us that I might not react in anger the way I have done here! Clearly I have not attained the level of divine perfection you see in yourself.

    Tonight, when I pray, I shall ask God to forgive my anger toward you and people like you. Believe it or not, I believe that you BELIEVE you are speaking the “truth in love”…I believe that you believe that with all your heart. I will also pray that you come to a place in your life where you will LET Him deliver you from arrogance and pride!

  • To Mike Zanella,

    I appreciate what you have shared about the healing you experienced with your addiction issues. However, as one who works in the addiction medicine field, I can tell you that one who is struggling with addiction can in no way be compared to one who is struggling with homosexual. Addiction has physiological and psychological components to it. For one who is homosexual, it’s no different than having been born with brown eyes or black hair or being left handed or right handed – something that one didn’t choose…. I wish I could find the words to adequately explain this. Perhaps there is someone else on these boards who could articulate it more appropriately than I? If so, please do.

    Speaking from my own personal experience and the experiences of many others I can tell you that most of us, if not all of us at one time or another, have pleaded with God to remove this to no avail. If it was a matter of true repentance and prayerfully pleading with God to set one free, then why are so many of us still struggling? I know all about “Waiting on the Lord” but for most of us it’s been a lifelong struggle, and not just a fly by night thing.

    If the evangelical churches weren’t so condemning and judgemental, perhaps more of us would be willing to “come out of the closet and tell our stories/seek spiritual help etc… rather than hiding due to the fear of rejection and abandonment.” We walk a very painful isolated road. We can’t turn to our christian families, we don’t feel safe telling the church, we isolate from all those who love us because we’re afraid of rejection and criticism/condemnation…

    I have to believe God alone knows my heart. He has heard my prayers and seen my tears. He knows I love Him and want to live in close relationship with him, gay or straight. He knows whether I require healing or whether he made me this way and my life is in His gracious hands. I long to serve Him, to be active in ministry once again and He knows this. His precious blood still flows for me and I pray I can be all He wants me to be once again one day.

  • Jason,

    I am sorry that my words have elicited such an angry response from you. I think you may have missed what I was saying or possibly I mis spoke. To me it sounds that God has delivered you because you are not giving into the sin of homosexuality. Obviously it is a daily struggle, just like it is for me and te things I was once addicted too. And though Matt may not be sexually involved right now, his questions led me to believe that he still struggles with the lust of homosexuality and that is in fact adulturous. Jesus said if you lust with the eyes, you have already committed adultery in your heart. I was only trying to encourage a young man who is struggling just as I did. I think I was prety transparent, speaking of the struggles I have had and how God delivered me from that life of sin. It doesn’t mean I don’t ever think about it or desire to do it, but I am not practicing it. That is teh deliverance of which I speak and maybe it is as simple as your definition of God’s deliverance and mine. I am sincerely sorry you see me as prideful and arrogant, I will definitely be seeking the Lord in that to ensure my intentions are pure and my words are true. I know this is hot botton issue, but please really look back on my posts and see my sympathy to those who struggle with this. Yet it doesn’t make the truth any less true. 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5 speak to those who practice any type of sexual sin, and that is what I am encouraging Matt R to be delivered from, practicing. And yes we need to allow God to deliver us from sin. He may put circumstances before us to see the clear choice or we may have t be chastened by Him, but we have to be willing. We still have a choice in our actions and our sins. Hopefully this clarifies my position and if not I a truly sorry. Jut know, I have not judged, only encouraged and spoke of what the Bible has said.

    God bless you brother,
    Mike

  • Thank you Mike. Ya there is only one Matt R. Matt Roybal is my name. I’s great because you can help me to lead in the right direction. I read Corinthians, and Galations. And your Right. It said that Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Lately I have isolated myself from the world. I havent gone out with friends, becuase most of my friends are homosexual and I dont want to be around a bad example. You know when you star thinkin of sin, and how it can lead you to hell. It scares me. My biggest fear is hell. And at that moment I tell myself whoa I have to change, I’m gonna do good. But then after a few days you forget about it, and get side tracked. And you wanna sin again. Hell is a very scary thought. I want to live with Jesus forever. And then you start thinkin well hey God might not come for a long time so how about I just sin in the mean time, and please myself. But we don’t know when God will return. Which is why we need to be ready all the time right? There has been times when I wanted to sin, but God did’nt allow me too. Like he put block in front of me to prevent me from doing that. Will God do that to keep us from sin? And My other question was if I say Im homosexual right now, But I stay say I’m saved. Is that possible? Cause you someone told me that you cant be a christian, and homosexual at the same time. Than does that mean I’m not really saved? Cause if I a saved which I am, but I also say I’m homosexual than would’nt I still make it to heaven? I mean I thought once your saved your always saved? Is that right? I kind of just want God to come already so I dont have to grow older and do the sin I crave. This is hurting me so much. I don’t remember the last time I was really happy? I seek counseling every week. But my counselor just tells me to be myself. Which is “homosexual”. She says there is nothing wrong with me. That its perfectly normal. But when I keep hearing christians tell me that it’s wrong I start to get convicted cause I don;t wanna go to hell. Am I getting convicted because people keep telling me its wrong, or do I get convicted because I really do feel it wrong? I’m been concvited about alot of things, but I never have about beng gay. I am more embarssed of it. I have never told my family that I have had sex or dated a guy before. Cause I’m embarassed. After I had sex with a guy I fealt soooooooooo guilty. Like so ashamed. And I’m happy that I have that powerful conscience. I also think that if I were to live a life with a guy, that I would feel guilty every time I had sex with him only because I know that part is wrong. Therefore I would probab;y be happy. But then I think if I meet a really good lookin guy, and I’m so attracted to him that I’ll be happy, and never feel guilty or ashamed. To be honest I think I’m really deep into this. And I feel I’m not strong enough to get out. I have so many dreams and ambitons for myself. I wanna work for disney, and I wanna become a professional dancer , and artist. But Im afraid to leave home because people already sense that I’m gay. What If I do let God deliver me from homosexuality, and than I go out in public and people ask me if I’m gay based on the way I act. And then I get those feeling s of being Gay again. I’m afraid thats gonna happen. I do want kids of my own. I wanna have kids, not adopt. But I’m just not sexually attracted to woman. I used to tell myself I will make myself. But I gave up on that. I’m a nice, sweet, living, kind, and generous boy. The only sin I’m commiting as the bible speaks of is homosexuality. But If I’m not dating a guy, or having sex than I’m not commiting the sin right? Or am I sinning by just me saying that I am gay? It’s also hard because when I’m on facebook, or twitter only gay guys will compliment me on my pics, or they wanna be my friend. And then that causes me to sin because I wanna talk back to them, or eventually meet them you know? So thats hard too. It’s just what if people always suspect I’m gay when I go out in public. I AM VERY LOST IN THIS SIN. Peple try to tell me its right, or its ok and I wanna believe them. But then theres the christians who tell me its very wrong, and to change. How does a person become homosexual? To me I’ve always fealt this way. I couldnt make myself like a girl when I was 10, 13, or 17. does’nt God unserstand that I can’t? I know we are all born with sinful natures. And people say its us who give into th sin. But I didnt wanna be gay, I did’nt ask for it. It just happend. What the bible were to say its a sin to be born without an arm, and a person is born without a arm? Whats that person to think? Same thing with homosexuality. There has to be some more understanding behind homosexuality. Is’nt there. Or what if in the end we find out that we mis-understood it, and then I’m gonna regret my whole life being single when I could of been with a guy. I just don’t wanna find that out. So as you can see yes I’m still VERY CONFUSED. But please just pray that God answers me, and that I have stronger faith. My intentions are good I promsie you that. Just my thoughts are not I guess. Mike you mean when, and I appriciate you very much. Here is my email mroybal777@yahoo.com. Email me anytime. You have greta advice. And God Bless You for caring about my salvation.

    Where areb you from Mike Zanella?

    Thanks for all your help and advice!!!

    Matt Roybal :)

  • You have not spent enough time in close relationships with homosexuals if you truly believe it is as easy as just stopping and not having sex. Most of the straight people on this board couldn’t do it and most didn’t refrain from having sex before they were married. Why not build a bridge with this community, share the Gospel and allow God to work instead of contributing to the building of walls? Please read “Love is an Orientation”. And another thing, what was so loving and Christ like about a public blog post? If you really loved her, cared for her, you should have called or written in private.

  • Wow Matt, you gave me so much to reply to. I will pick this up tomorrow or start communicating with you via e-mail. But know that it should not be christians who convict you but the Word of God. And it sounds like when you read 1 Cor. 6 and Galatians 5, you were convicted. All I am trying to do is point you to what God says my friend. Anyway, I will be praying for you tonight and thank you for the kind words.

    God Bless you brother,
    Mike

  • Truthfully Can You Be Homosexual, and Be Born Again “Saved” At The Same Time Like Jennifer Knapp Is? Will You Have Success? How Would We Ever Know If It’s Possible To Do That? God Would’nt Allow A Homosexual Who Is Saved Still To Go To Hell Would He???

  • Hey Mike Zanella.
    Actually No I’m not. I currently live in Santa Fe, New Mexico =( blah. lol. I wish I lived in San Diego. My brother used to live there. It’s one of my most favorite parts of California. I want to eventually move there.
    But I’m planning on moving to California L.A. by september of this year for college. I’m gonna attend the Art Institute of North Hollywood. I wanna work for Disney, and become an Imagineer :) And when I do move out there we can hang out, and be friends.

  • Well written. I think of the prophet Jeremiah…he wept for the people because they did not listen to the truth. He was obedient to the Lord. Know that you have been obedient no matter what the outcome. Blessings.

  • Hey Jeff Goins! How are you?

    Also this is to GodKnowsMyName. I try and teel my family that what you said. How homosexuality is the same as someone being born with brown eyes, or black hair. Its just in the genes. How we are made. So how do we explain that to people who think we choose it? My mom has not even accepted me. She tells me its sinful still. So I wanna not sin so I don’t end up in hell. But it’s hard not to like guys when I do.

    It’s like a stright male trying to like a guy. He just can’t!

    Bt also to the people who are being kinda harsh to Mike Zanella…Please don’t. He just care’s for us, and wan’t what is best for us. And I truly appriciate that from the bottom of my heart!

  • Hey Mike Zanella…I will give u my # so we can keep in touch through text if you text?

    15059301419 that might be easier than email. Or u can call. Don’t matter man,

  • Haha Sorry Mike. You Don’t Have To Reply To The Whole Thing. Just Had Alot To Say lol. But Ya Sounds Good. Have A Good Night Dude. And TTYS!

    -Matt Roybal

  • We had a discussion similiar to this at church yesterday. About how Christians can approach the world OR a Christian who has slipped away in such a HARSH manner. I love that I found your blog to use some of your points in what I was trying to explain. (If thats ok..lol) You hit the nail on the head in describing how sin is left behind and the heart should be repentative. AMEN! I so agree with that sentiment. Thanks for posting this!

    We can kill our own sometimes so much worse than the world ever dared to think about…sad huh?

    God bless,
    Bree

  • “Rom. 1:26 Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn’t know how to be human either—women didn’t know how to be women, men didn’t know how to be men. Rom. 1:27 Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.”

    Why this argument does not work towards homosexuality is because homosexuals of today do love each other and do have God in their hearts (they are not refusing it). So this text does not meet the criteria of a good argument as to why Christians find homosexuality wrong. It’s about real love for each other through Christ and that is the one part of this argument judgmental Christians are missing.

  • “Truth and righteousness”

    It’s funny how Christians do that so their egos can feel vindicated about justifying their positions on morality. Time has shown that what we thought to be true really wasn’t. For example: The earth was flat! The other problem…Christ had to come down and show what the truth was for the people of that time. They had it wrong too. Righteous is one word that a Christian should not use since it means to be “Morally upright; without guilt or sin.” We all know there is no Christians alive today who has not sin and continues to sin. But, let’s remember that word righteous can have several different meanings… It’s all about your perspective based on your personal experiences that will define how you interpret the meaning of those two words together.

  • Jennifer was right – please don’t use her name while you shepherd the earthly flock the Lord has given you.

    You could have just blogged about homosexuality in general. Please apologize to Jennifer on the national stage for this. THAT will speak more than your blog posts and all your words on Larry King Live.

    Ted Haggard was right, too. Play back the tape and really listen to what he said about grace. “He who has been forgiven much loves much!”

    I fear that you, Pastor Bob, have completely lost sight of grace, and gratitude to the Lord for how He knows your name.

  • Hi- I actually just found out all this chatter was going on about Jenifer Knapp. I have loved her music for so long- her lyrics have always spoken very deeply to me. A good friend emailed me the news so I looked up the video on Youtube. I must say I was very impressed with you and the way you are taking a stand in truth. I appreciate the love that was very present in you the whole time. I read your blog- Amen brother. I am shocked by the news and the interview left me really disappointed by her… I have great respect for you- thank you for being a light.

  • To GODKNOWSMYNAME,

    I am sorry that the evangelical churches haven’t been open to you or you feel shunned. Our church is not that way, it’s all about what God’s Word says and that’s it. Maybe my comparison wasn’t perfect, nor was it meant to be. My point beyond the addictions I have had to battle, was also my own sexual sin that felt impossible to break. It wasn’t homosexual desires but I believe they were no less powerful and controlling over me. It truly was and is about surrender, maybe it needs to be with fasting and prayer, countless hours in God’s Word…. We have to crucify the flesh and die to ourselves everyday, no matter how difficult it is. I am not judging anyone, but I believe God’s Word is clear, and if it is clear, then He has to provide a way out. If God’s Word is not clear, please explain it to me. I am praying for you.

    God Bless,
    Mike

  • Thank you for preaching the truth in love and gentleness. If someone say otherwise, than let God be the judge, because the fruit of Pastor Bob’s spirit speak for itself.
    If people claimed they are born as a homosexual, well technically we’re all do. We’re all born with the original sin (Romans 5:12), so we’re all naturally evil, rebellious and sinful. Without God’s given grace through His holly spirit, our sinful nature will choose sin and disobedient to God’s command. By making a statement that , you can be gay and be Christian at the same time, because God loves you for who you are, you also become an Idolater. Worshiping a God of your own fashion, and you have exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for some other God and idolatry will always result in immorality.
    I remember when I was a kid, my parents yelled at me and grounded me for a week because I had a fight with my friend at school. I didn’t like it, I try to justify why I was fighting. Now that I’m grown spiritually, looking back I try to justify it and I hate what I heard from my parents mouth, because I loved my sin. I didn’t want to hear the truth, and because of that I deserved the punishment that they gave me. They did it because they love me. The same thing with God, for He is righteous and just, He will put the right justice to those who disobey Him. I am not saying that Christian are perfect, no we’re not, we’re not better than anyone else, or more righteous that anyone else. We’re better off, because Someone already paid pour penalty of sins, our sins are washed away, the first time we repent and put our saving faith Christ. The only thing He demand from us for paying our ‘bail out’ is our obedience. There’s difference between struggling with sin and loves the sin. Struggling means you are not try to justify it, you acknowledge it as a sin, and you try really hard to sanctify yourself. That’s struggling. Loving your sin, means you don’t want to hear what God’s word said about it, you try to justify it,you’re still living with it and you become so proud of your sin. You might feel a little remorse and guilt, but if there’s no repentance, you’re not much different from a reform criminal.
    For Jeniffer Knapp and others like her, there is a good news for the perverse cause if they will recognize this as sin, see it for what it is, quit trying to defend it and sanctify it, quit trying to justify it, confess it as the sin that it is, cry out to God, He’ll forgive you and wash you and sanctify you and justify you. And dear ones, this is the message we have to give to these people, there isn’t any other message.

  • Pastor Bob, I watched the program and felt that you came with an attitude of love and grace when speaking about Jennifer and her choices. I support your stance and am thankful that you were there to be a voice of reason on a show designed to stir up controversy.

    Blessings,

    James

  • Hi Jason,

    A quick follow up on Paul’s thorn in the flesh you referenced as though Paul had some kind of sin he couldn’t overcome. The word on the original Greek is Skolpos, which literally translated means thorn, spike, or sliver. Most biblical commentators belive this to be a physical ailment or some type of spiritual attack. The only time it was ever believed to be sin in Paul’s life was in the Middle Ages. This was later refuted by Calvin and Luther during the Reformation. It is consistant with an eye problem Paul may have had, see Galatians 4 and also Galatians 6(where he says he is writing in his own hand in large letters), common of someone with a sight problem in those days. It also is not consistent with the rest of what Paul says in I Corinthains 12 when read in context that he was struggling with a sin(thorn). I truly don’t believe it was some sin in his life that he asked God to deliver him from. Maybe you’ve read something else about it, but this was out of 2 different Bible Dictionaries/Commentaries.

    God bless,
    Mike

  • Greetings: Why is it that you have to make a big thing of this. You say you knew about this for 8 years & all you did is pray. Why didn’t you follow Matthew 18:15-20? Instead you go onto Larry King Live & talk with her then. How come you didn’t give any answers. All you did was give the “Christian” answers. Instead, you should have spoken to her before it got to this point. But instead you seem to think that you have all the answers, but you didn’t give any. & of course you should have known that at the Cresent News Network that they would get Ted Haggard on to contradict everything you said. Belive me the bar is buried 6 feet under & you still could clear it.
    What you say & what you do matters. I know of Pastors with the Calvary Chapel movement that have done things to get their pulpit back after they put a person in their to replace them & he Skip Heitzig is like you. You talk & “teach” a good game, but in the end all you do is talk & don’t practice. Mission un-accomplished.

  • I was very impressed by your “standing in the gap” on LKL the other night. I love Jenn, her music and so on but im brokenhearted over what she has chosen. We struggle with sin everyday, sometimes we give in to that struggle, but we concur with God, we repent and turn from it because we know that what He has is good and pure and perfect. I cannot beleive she has accepted this sin as normal. I posted on my FB that i was praying for Her and the homosexual community for a relationship with God and for Him to reveal His truth. I can tell you, i got alot of hate mail, posting and made many people angry. Ive had to answer for that, in love to some of my friends, but i wont deny whats true for the sake on anything. You did a great job of conveying that. My prayer is for you and your ministry, for Jenns repentance and for the homosexual community as a whole.Continue on brother. great job

  • “Quit trying to justify it” I wonder if that line could be used for all what is happening in today’s society of materialistic greed within the Christian world. But, yet so many continue to justify their behavior and their egos while hiding behind the bible’s text. Remember the word homosexual was never in the original text and it can be justified as long as they have been born again, believe in God and love each other without abuse. It’s so easy to take snippets of text and twist it into justifying your cause without putting in perspective. (I am doing it with just a piece of text from a previous post.) So many Christians are adjusting their perspective of the bible to justify the lives they are leading now. ALL Christians are living in massive sin but of course none of you will see it that way. This is God’s earth and what is happening to it is appalling. Not to mention all the homeless and starving people in it. The excuse that will use is I need to pay the bills, but Christ said do not worry about your material world all will be provided for you. The reason I don’t buy any of the arguments that has been used so far is it comes from a place of a judgmental attitude with lots of ego because you want to be right. The interpretation of what MEN wrote regarding what they thought God said is truly up for debate, just like the lost books that are not included in today’s Bible. Even Pastor Bob’s blog is coming from a place of ego because he used Jennifer Knapp’s photos or wrote about her specifically without her permission. The lesson that so many need to work on is what truly defines Christ’s love and how to live by that example.

  • “Please know I come from a position of love for all of you struggling with this and I am glad to see your openness and honesty about it. First let me say God’s Word IS very straightforward, especially when it comes to sexual sin.”

    No it’s not. It is only straightforward in YOUR mind because you have allowed your ego to close it to other interpretations of the words being used.

  • Hi Tracy,

    Apparently you have only read a recent post of mine but let me just tell you what I read in the Word of God.
    Does the Bible say that marriage is only between one man and one woman? Yes.
    Is adultery any sexual relation or even lust outside of marriage? Yes.
    Does 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5 say that anyone practicing adultery will not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Yes.
    So we don’t even have to worry about if the word homosexuality was around back then or properly translated. Most of my posts have been to open questions, so I didn’t come on here telling anyone what to do. But the truth should be spoken at all times. Sometimes it may hurt, God’s Word is sharper than any two edged sword. But other than relating to my own struggles, I believe I have only written what the Bible says.

    God Bless,
    Mike

  • Just watched the youtube vid with the Larry King appearance.

    Bob,

    Well done. Thanks for having the obedience to step up and speak the truth in love.

    Praying for you.

  • Of course you going to cut & edit mine. But you put everyone else’s up. You guys are so two-faced. How you can claim that you want peoples reply & then you pull a Obama & pick & choose what you want up. Obama should be proud of your ways of working, because he does that everyday to everyone is Amercia.

  • You have only written what the Bible says…that’s the rub…what version are you on and which Bible?

    It’s all about perspective and interpretation…

    Let’s take Cor. 6-9.

    “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes (Gk. malakoi), sodomites (Gk. arsenokoitai), thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers — none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10 NRSV)”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

    Corinthians (ch 6:v 9-10): “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”

    It’s for that reason you need to allow the soul within you to feel the holy spirit and God’s love through Christ to find your given path. I will probably never be convinced homosexuality is a sin because I believe in everyone’s soul. I also believe souls are sexless so there is no reason that the soul within someone couldn’t be attracted to another soul regardless of the out shell the soul is wearing. To limit our perspective of God’s capability limits our spiritual growth and love. We are here to learn the lessons God felt our souls needed to learn to think you truly understand God’s intent through writings done by man I just don’t get.

  • Hi Tracy,

    I think all of those versions used synonyms for one another, or used the exact same words. Either way, the Bible is written by men under the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the words of God, given to us. God is also not a God of confusion, and since He knows the beginning from the end, He knew this conversation would take place. He also knew people would use the different versions argument to make a case for this or that. That is why my first reply to you seemed so very clear.

    Marriage= 1 man and 1 woman
    Adultery= sex or lust outside the confines of marriage.
    Every version you quoted= those who practice adultery will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    That’s how I understand it, and if you chose to understand it a different way, that is obviously your decision. But it doesn’t mean I used my ego to close off the definitions of the words I wanted as you stated previously. Above is what the Bible says in any version you want to look at, at least any version that is seeking direct translation. BTW, I use the NKJV, and from my understanding other than the KJV, that is about as close to word for word you are going to find.

    God Bless,
    Mike

  • Pastor,
    I saw you on Larry King, and you seem very sincere and very loving. I think there are many wonderful, good people in Christianity, and you’re probably one of them.

    But what I see also is that Christians can’t even agree on some basic things in the Bible. And people go on in confusion trying to figure out how to apply the Bible to their real lives.

    Plus you prayed for Jennifer for 8 years, and she’s now come out. What does this tell you about prayer?

    So many Christians who are all so sure they have it correct, and they all supposedly have the Holy Spirit guiding them-yet they disagree? Does that make sense to you?

  • Here we go now with the one man one woman argument…

    There are many references to polygynous marriages in the Bible:
    Lamech, in Genesis 4:19, became the first known polygynist. He had two wives.
    Subsequent men in polygynous relationships included:
    Esau – 3 wives;
    Jacob: 2;
    Ashur: 2;
    Gideon: many;
    Elkanah: 2;
    David: many;
    Solomon had 700 wives of royal birth;
    Rehaboam: 3;
    Abijah: 14.
    J ehoram, Joash, Ahab, Jeholachin and Belshazzar also had multiple wives.
    From the historical record, it is known that Herod the Great (73 to 4 BCE) had nine wives.

    Levirate Marriage: The name of this type of marriage is derived from the Latin word “levir,” which means “brother-in-law.” This involved a woman who was widowed without having borne a son. She would be required to leave her home, marry her brother-in-law, live with him, and engage in sexual relations.

    A male rapist and his victim: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 requires that a female virgin who is not engaged to be married and who has been raped must marry her attacker, no matter what her feelings were towards the rapist.

    But, in today’s society we know better now don’t we? It’s all about that annoying perspective and time frame.

    God made homosexuals so it only makes sense that he would also want them to married through Christ’s love and his. He pulled the rib from a man and called it woman at the time but it truly was still part of a man.

  • Well Tracy, we could go back and forth on now polygymous realtionships, the Livirate marriage, etc… We should all know that for a time God allowed polygamy, just like family members marrying each other, so that the earth could be populated. All of these have a reason God allowed it, just don’t know each off the top of my head. I can do research and come back to these, but my previous post holds true as does God’s Word. I will keep you in my prayers.

    God Bless,
    Mike

  • “I think all of those versions used synonyms for one another, or used the exact same words.”

    The point of it was regarding this is a discussion of homosexual being used in the text and that is not the case in all interpretations.

    So how do you know which interpretation is right? I believe it’s allowing your soul to feel Christ’s love to point the way for you. We are all on our separate journeys to learn the lessons our soul needs to in order to be welcomed into God’s kingdom. No one has the right to judge that journey or say that person is wrong as long as they are loving God, leading a peaceful life and not hurting or abusing others. Many peaceful loving homosexuals fall into that category.

  • “We should all know that for a time God allowed polygamy, just like family members marrying each other, so that the earth could be populated.”

    So, now that the earth is over populated and is being slowly destroyed God is creating homosexuals for this day an age to stop this from happening. The problem is so many of you are lost in the past to even consider that possibility.

  • Obviously Pastor Bob is editing the post I responded to the Mike’s post and he has deleted it. So that the argument goes in his favor. Mike your ego is involved only you have gotten so use to it being there you can’t recognize it.

    The reason I am arguing this is that I have in my life some of the most amazing friends and family members that are homosexuals. They by far are the most loving, Christian people I know. I believe their faith runs deeper than most of the Christians out there because of the persecution they have had to endure by their fellow man and Christians. God made them, God loves them. Their self sacrifice that they continue to give back to the community’s that treat them like trash shows me true dedication and love that Christ’s talks about. Many Christians that condemn and judge these people don’t even know them and that is the greatest shame of all. You want to pray for someone, pray for your fellow Christians. I don’t need your prayers. I have all the love and support I need through Christ’s love, my homosexual friends and family.

  • Hey PB, just wanted to say thankyou for standing for the only truth there is,with many coming against you. I have 2 boys, and one on the way, and for the first time today and now for the rest of their lives a truth I will passionatly give to them is to always always stand for the truth, stand for the word of God no matter how many tell you your wrong. In the end I only want my little guys secure in their eternity. Thankyou.

  • Pastor Bob, I watched the show. Your message is right on and is the only way anyone will ever get set free from this bondage of sexual/emotional sin. When Ted Haggard came on I was so confused. What a mixed message he gave. I pray more Christians will study the Word of God and follow the teachings of Christ to live FREE from Sin. We must repent from the temptations that attack our minds. II Cor. 10:5. It all starts in the mind and shows us how desperately we need to have our minds renewed by the washing of the Word of God. When our minds are renewed we can behave like Jesus. I will be praying for all of our lost Christian friends who don’t want the transforming power of God through His Word.

  • Jennifer Knapp on Larry King Live Last Friday | Wink's Movie Blog

    [...] in May. Knapp was joined on Larry King Live by Clay Aiken (a singer who came out two years ago), Pastor Bob Botsford (an evangelical pastor who wants Knapp to repent of her lifestyle), and disgraced preacher Ted [...]

  • “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female, there is neither homosexual nor heterosexual; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    If only…then maybe this planet could be saved.

  • have been reading some of these blogs.
    Mike Zanella – thank you for your faithfullness to God’s Word and having the boldness to speak the truth and share your heart. I thank God for your humility to share your story.
    As a mom who went through a very dark time with a son who chose a life of sin – I loved and still love him unconditionally but it did not mean that I agreed with the lifestyle or sin.
    How it must grieve God – whatever the sin is
    For me, I am not always aware that something is sin but daily reading of HIS WORD, seeking HIS WILL and then praying for wisdom has been such a blessing to do a better job each day of living for HIM.
    Thank you Father in Heaven that you know our thoughts, our motives and please give all of us clarity to live a life that is pleasing to YOU and only YOU. May we not cause others to stumble and thank you for loving us – all of us sinners – we are but filthy rags but through Jesus Christ we have been saved.

  • “I loved and still love him unconditionally but it did not mean that I agreed with the lifestyle or sin.”

    The same can be said of almost all Christians in the world. For many their lifestyles are now made up of greed through materialistic objects, walking by a homeless person in need, not feeding the hungry, etc… but yet they find it in their hearts to justify their lifestyles of sin. May you all find the true meaning of Christs love…because obviously reading his WORD isn’t helping.

    You see the splinter in other peoples eye but not the log in yours. Go and sin no more.

  • I am posting again because I am disgusted after reading more. I believe Jennifer has sin issues, no doubt. Unfortunately what may have started out with good intentions (I hope, but am not convinced) Bob now has a public sin issue to deal with as well. Bob needs to man up and apologize in public for the blog post. Other pastors and Christians need to hold him accountable for his actions. There was no reason for a public post like this. Call her, write her an email, a snail mail, there are many other things that people who love others do rather than post on public blogs peoples sin. There really was no excuse for this post. Do the right thing Bob, the Christian thing and apologize for your sinful actions.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey John:
    Don’t hold your breath. Pastors never admit that they are wrong or make mistakes. Skip Heitzig is a good example of that. He lied, cheated & stole to get the pulpit back at ABQ. But of course Calvary Chapel stood behind him & just let that issue slide. Because loyality is more important than dealing with the sin that he is in. Of course Pastor Bob will have people applaud this action & say what he did was right.
    The day the Calvary Chapel Churches get their Pastors right with God & the fellowships they lead will be the day Obama admits he is wrong. & I’m sure Bob won’t post this either. Because he is right & if we don’t see things from his view we are all wrong.

  • Dear Matt R and I believe Al- (After reading through so many posts I may have confused the name.)
    I have a brother who acted on gay feelings as a teen unbeknownst to me and the rest of our family. For years he was so confused and conflicted with many of the things you described, Matt and my heart goes out to you. He has since shared much of his painful journey with me and I know that he desperately wanted to follow the Lord and had made a committment to him as a child yet felt so guilty about the feelings he was expreriencing.
    I have been praying for you, Matt, since I read your post because on the day my brother had planned to commit suicide my Dad went to him and finally asked him if he thought he was gay. My brother broke down and shared the torment he had been living with for years. My parents immediately contacted a ministry they knew of to help him work through all of what you are describing.- only because there are people there who understand, where my parents could not. I encourage anyone who is struggling to talk to someone who can help (and I am not condeming any homosexuals who may be reading this and are not struggling- I have no desire to argue with anyone, just offer help and hope to those who are hurting) Matt, your pain and thoughts of suicide are not from the Lord- nor does He want you in this much confusion and bondage,. There is a group in NY that I know of- L.I.F.E Ministry (Living In Freedom Eternally) based in NYC http://www.lifeministry.org Phone 212-768-2366 – I have nothing to do with them (no ulterior motive!)

    Even if that is not close to you geographically, I would urge you to call them as I am sure they could connect you with someone close to you. Jesus loves you so much, Matt and He wants to walk with you into freedom- take a step of faith to believe the Truth- He is more than able to carry you when you can not walk.
    Your sister in His family.

  • As much as I would like to completely avoid this page, I can’t seem to help myself.

    First of all, Matt R….yes….you can reach me at nashmatt76@gmail.com. I look forward to chatting with you, my friend.

    In response to the ridiculously cliche “homosexual sin is just like any other sin” I would say this: The desire to love and be loved by another person is one of the absolute most basic needs put in us by God, and in NO WAY resembles an addiction to pornography, alcohol or drugs, etc. For those of you heterosexuals who honestly believe that you are speaking the truth in love? FYI – your words feel like a giant chainsaw on the hearts of those who have struggled with this our entire lives. Yes…we are to speak the truth to one another in love…absolutely. But you know what? You need to know that someone speaking to me about my harsh treatment of others, or my profane language, or my overuse of alcohol (or whatever) in no way compares to what it feels like to hear someone say, “The way you, Matt, desire to love and be loved is disgusting and God abhors it.” Why don’t you just take a knife to our throats while you’re at it? (And the same goes for all of you who put comments like, “Well said, Bob!!” up here on the board. It feels as if you’re saying to us, “Great job on putting all the homosexuals in their place.” Seriously, guys…..you have NO idea, NONE, ZERO….of what it feels like to face this thing everyday. I have dealt with pornography. I have a friend who has dealt with alcohol and drugs. This struggle feels NOTHING LIKE THOSE!!!

    Jason said it better than ever when he spoke of the pain that this struggle causes. Those of us who struggle with it know quite well what it’s like to struggle with sin in general, just like the rest of you, and struggling with one’s sexuality feels NOTHING like struggling with addiction, overeating, gossiping, or what have you.

    Speaking of that: Why is it that Christians are SOO eager to jump all over the homosexual “struggle” because it is “sinning against the body”, but they pay almost no attention at all to the fact that half the church puts crap into their bodies that was never meant to go in there? (After all, “gluttony” appear RIGHT next to “drunkenness” in the Bible) When was the last time you walked up to an overweight person after church and said, “Brother, I need to speak the truth to you in love….your overeating is sin.”

    PEOPLE!!! Jesus died so that we wouldn’t have to spend our energy focusing on sin. He TOOK CARE OF IT ON THE CROSS!! We are covered by grace, and even Paul himself stated that there is nothing that grace cannot or will not cover. Should that give me license to let all hell break loose? By no means!! But if someone truly wants to do that, he or she is STILL covered. It’s insane…..it makes no sense….but it’s TRUE, and that’s what makes the gospel so absolutely incredible!!!!

    I know what you’re saying to yourselves: “boy, is this guy deceived.” And you know what? Go right ahead. My relationship….my intimacy with God is the best it has ever been in my entire life, and He’s the only one I have to answer to.

    Ya know what? I’m not going to ask that you guys stop believing what you believe. I’m really not. I’m just going to ask that you step back and ask yourselves, “what are my words doing to the hearts of the people at whom I’m preaching?” If you think that because you struggle with sin that you understand, I can tell you that you don’t. You don’t. Do you hear me? You. Don’t. You have NO clue.

    I am begging you….BEGGING YOU….to simply step back, and be one of the first to say to us, “Ya know what? I don’t understand your struggle, and I never will. I know what I THINK the Bible says based on my own interpretation and what I’ve been taught, but who am I to condemn you? I will simply pray that God will walk with you, and lead you in the way that He has for you. He is big enough to do just that, and even if you step off the path, like we all certainly do, His grace is still there. Always and Forever.” Honestly, guys? That’s the purest prayer you could ever pray for us, and I believe it would be music to God’s ears.

    Forgive me if my words came off as angry. My heart just soooo aches for the pain that so many of us have faced due to the church’s words, and it stirs up a passion in me unlike any other.

    God Bless.

    Matt

  • Tracy: Thank you so much for your willingness to speak up for your wonderful friends. What an amazing gift they have in you. :)

    One more thing: for those of you wondering how Ted Haggard could go on Larry King and seem so “gray” on the issue, as some of you have said. Well…’ll tell you: It’s because HE KNOWS THE PAIN FIRSTHAND. How many of you can say that? How many of us have looked harshly upon others for a situation in which they found (or put) themselves, and then found ourselves in the exact same predicament? Until we’ve stepped into someone else’s shoes, we simply don’t know. Do we want to be known for having erred on the side of judging others too harshly, or for having extended too much grace and mercy? Think about it. Pray about it.

  • While I sincerely appreciate Mike Zanella’s responses to my posts, I am somewhat disappointed that the one to which my original post was addressed to has yet to acknowledge and respond.

    Perhaps he’s just too busy at the moment and I can understand that. However, it sure would be nice to hear what he has to say…

  • To GodKnowsMyName:

    Hey there….I know I’m not the one you want to be hearing from, but I wanted you to know how moved I was by your post. Thank you for being one of the few voices willing to speak those things. I wish more people spoke as you do, with such grace and compassion. Obviously, you know the hurt, the tears, and the heartache as well. I guess I shouldn’t expect anything less. :)

    -Matt

  • Hey Matt M,

    No need for apologies… It’s so nice to hear from you and to know you were moved by my post. Just curious… Which one are you referring to? I’m guessing it’s the second one. I, too, have been quite moved by your posts as well. No truer words have been spoken than those which read “Walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me what it feels like!” For you and me and countless others who have waged this war, we know just what it feels like first hand. It’s nothing like an alcoholic or a drug addict craving their next fix… It’s a longing and an emptiness that cannot be filled outside of a same sex intimate relationship that is built on mutual love and trust. The world sees a homosexual relationship as being nothing but “sex” and perhaps for some (no different than some hetero relationships) it is just that, but definitely not for all.

    Like you, Matt, I do know the hurt, the heartache, the isolation and yes, the tears – many, many of them. I know what it’s like to walk around feeling broken and wounded. Hiding my authentic self. I still do it today because I’m only “out” to a carefully selected few.

    For you and for me and for all of those who struggle, may we know God’s perfect peace in the midst of this raging storm.

    Blessings, my friend.

  • Tracy I was reading your comments. And like you said you have homosexual friends who are really Godly. Thats awesome. That kinda answers my question that I was wondering.
    Can a homosexual still be a christian.
    I am gay myself, and I am saved, and believe I will go to heaven. But I am being told to change my ways. I understand that I need to acknowledge God more in my life mor than I think about dating a guy. But I just wanna make it to heaven, and make God happy. But also make God happy.
    And when I see that you have friends who are christians and homosexuals that opens another door.

  • Dear Anne T,

    I just wanna sya thank you so much. I’ve been praying about meeting someone or some organization that can help me out, and give me some advice. I appriciate you so much for caring, and taking the time to read my story. Yes its a hard life. Bit I truly believe if I trust in God enough he can help me. And I thank God for you. Your comment really helped me out alot. And I will sure call that number asap. All I wanna do is the right thing you know? And just serve God, and make him happy. I know its gonna be tough. But I must be strong. Thank you so much again. And God Bless You.

    Your Brother In Christ,
    -Matt Roybal

  • Amen Pastor… well done in showing the love of Christ yet standing for the truth of the gospel. I pray Jenn turns from that sin instead of embracing it and that God would touch her in her life and bless her!!

  • Very Well Said Matt M. I just LOVE your comment. I love it how we at least understant eachother cause we are both going through the same thing so its easier for us to understand.

    Ok Matt M I can email you. But also I want you to tex me or call me. That may be easier too.

    Heres my number bud 15059301419.

    Look forward to hearing from you!

  • Pastor Bob,
    I just watched the interview and I was so grateful to hear someone stand for truth in a loving way. Thank you so much for your willingness to be bold, standing firm, and allowing God to use you as a vessel to share His commands in a LOVING way. It was really annoying how she kept getting onto you for interrupting when that’s all she did to you. It is all really sad to see and it just shows how satan seeks to kill, steal, and destroy. He distorts the truth cleverly where many can justify sins that are not part of God’s plan.

  • I appriciate all you who can comment in a way of understanding! Us Homosexual christians need to stick together LOL.

    But yeah I appriciate Matt M, And Tracy, And GodKnowsMyName, Anne T, Jason and anyone else who is going through the same thing…I appriciate you for your comments on the truth, I agree alot of Christians don’t nderstand how we feel. I know Mike Zanella wants whats best for us, and I think if anyone he feels our heartache, and I appriciate him for that.

    But the other ppl who post comments making us feel bad, or telling us how easy the soultion is, or those who condemn us. How dare you!

    We want whats best for us, and we want to do what God wants for us. I honestly think its easy for us who are going through the same thing to understand eachother better. I think God appriciates that we can help eachother out. Ted Haggard did seem to understand how Jen feels, and he was not saying what she was doing was right, but he was making a point how everyone sins, and everuone is on theyre own journey . And I think he understood her.
    God knows our hearts, and I see love and compassion from you guys. And I trust you guys so much. I’m please to have met you guys on here.

    So the main idea here is God Knows Our Hearts, and unless you have been through what us homosexuals have gone through. All the humility, and sadness you won’t understand. So unless you have something comforting to say to us please don’t condemn us or judge us. Cause we only have good intentions. I love you guys and feel free to email me too mroybal777@yahoo.com

    or you can call/text me to 15059301419. That may be easier.

    Look forward to hearing from you guys who undersand what I’m going through :) Or anyone who wants to get to know me, and discuss things. Im here for you just like you were there for me. God Bless You All!!!

    Love -Matt

  • Pastor Bob-

    Just wanted to let you know I stumbled upon the Larry King show here in Cambodia. I was able to watch the last half. My family and I are serving as missionaries here and have been here for 1 1/2 years. Praise God for you taking a stand and having the courage to speak the truth in love even though the world’s eyes are blind. You are an inspiration to us all. Blessings to you and your family.

  • I just want people to know for me at least…Being Homosexual does not mean I wanna have countless sex with multiple partners. Its deeper than that. I’m no attraced to guys for the hell of it. I am because I AM lol. Thats just how my brain is programmed to work. With a guy I feel absolute comfort, and safety. I don’t need sex to make me happy. I dream of meeting the guy of my dreams. The bible does say that a man shall not lie with anoter male. But its like what Tracy said…These days people truly love eachother. Just like Jennifer Knapp said she is in love with a beautiful woman. Love is so important. We all need that true love that you can’t get from anyone else but a true soul mate. thats all I want in life. I believe I can love someone, and still worship my Lord Savior. The question is is God gonna accept me for doing that? I hope. I can’t be celibate forever, I just cant.
    I dream of meeting my dream guy. I wanna meet him so bad. I pray to God that I can, In everything I do I still wait upon the Lord. I think God appriciates that. As a homosexual guy I have no bad intentions. No lustful thoughts. All I want is true love. Love that I have never experienced in my life. Not true love at least. God knows my heart, and knows whats best for me. And I’m just waiting upon him to answer me. If I live my life and don’t meet a guy then thats because thats what god wanted for me. But I’m gonna be patient and wait, and if I do meet an kind, loving, and christian guy, then I believe thats what God wanted for me. So its all about patience, and prayer. And waiting on God’s will for you.

    Somthing I though I would say.
    And I love all Christians. I just think they should put themselves in our shos before they judge, or condemn anyone. Cause thats just as bad a sin as homosexuality assumes to be.

    Peace, Love, And God!

    God Bless You All, and I hope my words, and the others who agree with me sink into your brain, and you understand us better.

    Homosexuals are not aliens from another planet…we don’t have disieses…well most of us don’t lol. Just Joking. But seriously We are perfectly normal just like you. Except me love differntly. We are kind, generous, lovong, trustworthy, caring, and Godly like you. We dont wanna sin intenionally, or hurt God. I think God see’s us as strong. To make it all this was after all the torment, and trials, and obstacles we been through, I’m sure he is proud of us. I hope you straight people can just understand what it’s like to be a homosexual for one second. Its no easy task believe me. We should be treated with respect, and kindness. Thats how God would want u to treat us. Instead of makin us feel bad for our sin that we cant help. Please SEE EYE TO EYE WITH ME, AND ALL THE OTHER HOMOSEXUAL CHRISTIANS.

    Thats all I ask,
    Thank You!

    -Matt Roybal

  • The only thing worse than an intolerant, small-minded pompous jackass is an intolerant, small-minded pompous jackass WITH A BIBLE.

    God help us all.

  • Thanks for sharing this blog /article. i watched your interview on Larry King with Jennifer Knapp (via youtube ) with great interest and also great sadness. When one part of the Body suffers, we ALL suffer. I agree with your presentation and words that you proclaimed so boldy, yet also so humble and loving, on Larry King.
    I found it “interesting” that on LK — that both the interviewer and JK both stated “were not bible scholars,haven’t studied the Word ” etc etc yet they were defensive,critical & accusatory towards Scripture and your presentation.
    Keep Shining Gods light and love.
    We’re all sinners SAVED by Grace.
    Its HIS kindness that leads us to REPENTANCE .
    praying that Gods kindness and love and convicton lead JK to repentance.
    We need more pastors like you .
    In Him, Tommy Wales

  • Just caught the interview on Larry King.

    Excuse me, but I can’t help but view you and your commentary as you, yourself, envisioned….” a hate filled, homo-phobe, preaching bigot that is forcing my perspective down a tolerant culture’s throat.”
    Such hypocrisy, on your part. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that God is the Supreme Judge, and then you point fingers, acting on his behalf, condemning people. Are you without sin? You called Jennifer a “prodigal”.
    Is your sin less than mine or hers? Are we not on our own paths, and to be judged, individually, without input from others?
    You quoted Paul…why not quote Jesus….”He who is without sin, cast the first stone”. Get off your sanctimonious high horse, and make sure your t’s are crossed and i’s “dotted”. ACC

  • To GodKnowsMyName,

    I will respond to your post. God gave you this struggle because he knew you could handle it. There is a lesson in what you are going through and until you learn the lesson your pain will not stop. I want you to go to the most peaceful place you know and stay there for at least an hour or so. Allow your mind to relax and let the pain go. Think about your soul, feel it’s presence in you and ask the Holy Spirit and Jesus to show you the way. Release it to them. Your answer will not come right away but be open to receiving it. Only you will know what the truth is for you. Release your fear and be open to the path you need to be on. Most importantly continue to love yourself and God through this process or you will block the answer you seek.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Calvary Reunion: Skip Heitzig Returns to N.M.
    New Mexico megachurch pastor returns after leadership conflict.
    Rob Moll | posted 9/28/2006 09:22AM

    Radio teacher Skip Heitzig has returned to lead the church he founded as a small Bible study in 1981, then left in 2003. Heitzig resumed his role as senior pastor of Calvary of Albuquerque, with a weekly attendance of 14,000, months after he and the church board became embroiled in accusations about accountability and conflicts of interest.

    Despite leaving in 2003 for Ocean Hills Church in Southern California, Heitzig remained chair of the board of directors at Calvary of Albuquerque (CA) while Pete Nelson, his chosen successor, took over at CA. Nelson resigned after two years as senior pastor. In his resignation letter, which was leaked to local media last February, Nelson accused Heitzig of stacking the board with people who didn’t attend the church. When Nelson complained about the issue, he said Heitzig threatened “to take over as senior pastor.”

    Heitzig admitted he made mistakes during the transition, but rebutted Nelson’s charges.

    “Some of the things that he mentions or allegations that he brings he himself voted for in board meetings,” Heitzig told CT. “When Pete Nelson resigned … I had a level of responsibility as founding pastor.”

    ca affiliates with Calvary Chapel, a network of 1,300 U.S. churches. The group began as an outgrowth of Chuck Smith’s ministry to hippies during the Jesus Movement. At CA, as with many other network congregations, church bylaws make the senior pastor chair of the board of directors with the sole authority to nominate board members. CA, like many Calvary churches, does not have members, only people who attend.

    Following the CA turmoil, Calvary Chapel Outreach Fellowships (CCOF), an organization formed to maintain accountability for Calvary Chapel pastors, looked into the controversy. CCOF found “no evidence of sin or wrongdoing on the part of the board of directors, Skip Heitzig, or Pete Nelson.”

    One report from the CCOF investigation surfaced on an anti–Calvary Chapel blog. The report’s author, Tom Stipe, is senior pastor of Crossroads Church of Denver, where Nelson previously worked. Stipe said Heitzig interjected himself at CA because he faced a rough transition at his new church and remained dependent on CA for $500,000 per year to fund his radio program. Hundreds of radio stations broadcast Heitzig’s daily radio program, The Connection. Stipe said Heitzig suffered from “buyer’s remorse.”

    “[Ocean Hills] had not reacted well to the changes in becoming a Calvary Chapel– type church,” Stipe wrote. “Many [congregants] moved away. The end result was a decline in attendance and most likely a decline in financial support.”

    Stipe declined to speak to CT.

    Heitzig said that Stipe was asked to present only Nelson’s perspective. “He didn’t interview me,” Heitzig told CT. “He didn’t interview board members at Ocean Hills. He didn’t interview board members at Calvary Albuquerque.”

    Though Heitzig has returned to CA, some attendees wonder if the problems exposed by Nelson’s resignation have been addressed. John Ackerman, a business ethics professor and former ceo of a state utility company, is one of six longtime lay leaders who are leaving the church after fighting for changes to the board makeup and accountability structures. Nelson’s resignation, Ackerman told CT earlier this year, “was indicative of a larger governance problem. Fiscal accountability was virtually nonexistent.” CA says their finances have since been audited and provided a copy of the auditors’ statement to CT. Anyone with questions can make an appointment to speak with a pastor, they said.
    “We welcome Skip and [his wife] Lenya back to Albuquerque,” said interim senior pastor and board member Dave Row, “and look forward to what the Lord will accomplish in the coming days.”

    Heitzig denied reports of continuing dissension at the church, New Mexico’s largest. “What I see here is a very united front,” he said. “From everything that I’ve seen and heard in the last few weeks, there’s nothing but a unanimous joy.”

    Copyright © 2006 Christianity Today

  • Whats up Aaron Coleman?

    I’m Matt.

    I like what u had to say. That waw brave, and courageous of you :)

  • Bob…thanks for your blog and for taking a forthright and loving position. Thanks for your willingness to be on LKL and for the courage to face the interruptions and humanized, Me-first opinions of JK and Ted Haggard. You had little opportunity to articulate your well-formed views as seen here in your blog, as you were pushed into defensive positions with ridiculous arguments. “So, would you look down on someone born with four fingers?” Come on, Larry…you gotta be kidding me.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Question: “How much authority should a pastor have over a church?”

    Answer: The church is called “the flock of God” (1 Peter 5:2), “God’s heritage” (1 Peter 5:3), and “the church of God” (Acts 20:28). Jesus is “the head of the church” (Ephesians 5:23) and “the chief Shepherd” (1 Peter 5:4). The church rightly belongs to Christ, and He is the authority over it (Matthew 16:18). This is just as true of the local church as of the universal Body of Christ.

    God’s blueprint for building His church includes using men in the office of pastor. The pastor is first an elder, and along with the other elders, the pastor is responsible to do the following:

    1) Oversee the church (1 Timothy 3:1). The primary meaning of the word bishop is “overseer.” The general oversight of the ministry and operation of the church is the responsibility of the pastor and the other elders. This would include the handling of finances within the church (Acts 11:30).

    2) Rule over the church (1 Timothy 5:17). The word translated “rule” literally means “to stand before.” The idea is to lead or to attend to, with an emphasis on being a diligent caretaker. This would include the responsibility to exercise church discipline and reprove those who err from the faith (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:11-13).

    3) Feed the church (1 Peter 5:3). Literally, the word pastor means “shepherd.” The pastor has a duty to “feed the flock” with God’s Word and to lead them in the proper way.

    4) Guard the doctrine of the church (Titus 1:9). The teaching of the apostles was to be committed to “faithful men” who would teach others also (2 Timothy 2:2). Preserving the integrity of the gospel is one of the pastor’s highest callings.

    Some pastors consider the title overseer as a command to have their hand in everything. Whether it’s running the sound system or selecting songs for Sunday or picking out drapes for the nursery, some pastors feel it their duty to be involved in every decision. Not only is this exhausting for the pastor, who finds himself in every committee meeting, it’s also hampering certain others from using their gifts in the church. A pastor can oversee and delegate at the same time. In addition, the biblical model of a plurality of elders, along with deacons appointed to assist the pastor and elders, precludes the pastor from being a “one-man show.”

    The command to “rule” the church is sometimes taken to extremes as well. A pastor’s official responsibility is to govern the church along with the elders, and his focus should be primarily spiritual: matters such as edifying believers and equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry (Ephesians 4:12) are a pastor’s main concern. We have heard of pastors who seem more dictatorial than shepherd-like, requiring those under their authority to seek their permission before making an investment, going on vacation, etc. Such men, it seems to us, simply desire control and are not fit to rule the church of God (see 3 John 9-10).

    First Peter 5:3 contains a wonderful description of a balanced pastoral ministry: “Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.” The pastor’s authority is not something to be “lorded over” the church; rather, a pastor is to be an example of truth, love, and godliness for God’s flock to follow. (See also 1 Timothy 4:12.) A pastor is “the steward of God” (Titus 1:7), and he is answerable to God for his leadership in the church.

    Recommended Resource: Biblical Eldership by Alexander Strauch.

  • Thanks for the blog, it was heartfelt and driven by the Word of God. It is sad that in today’s culture more and more people take personal preferences and emotions instead of looking to Biblical truth.

  • On April 16th at 9:45 you replied to Eric saying:
    “There is only Person who ever lived the Christian life perfectly and it was Jesus Christ. The idea for a Christian is not to attempt in our lame abilities to outdo Him. Rather it is to let Him live His life in us. That being the case, I think we can agree that Jesus wasn’t a homosexual right? Thus, it only stands to reason that anyone inviting Jesus Christ to live in them would also not be a homosexual or practice any such manner of sinful behavior.”

    Being a Christian and being homosexual are not mutually exclusive. I know and understand that God’s word explicitly says that homosexuality is a sin. I don’t believe homosexuality is a choice (just as heterosexuality is not a choice), but in your example above I could replace “homosexual” with things that are considered “choice” sins. The Bible says that divorce is a sin, working the Sabbath is a sin, eating animals with hooves that do not eat cud is a sin, etc. There are plenty of people who have divorced their spouse for reasons other than what God gives as legit reasons (therefore sinning and living in that state of sin unless they return to being married to that person). There are people that work 7 days a week without taking time to rest (And I mean work for their salvation as well). There are people who eat ham and bacon and tons of other parts of pigs. I am not listing these things to downplay the fact that I believe homosexuality is a sin- I’m saying these things because it is common practice for leaders within religious ranks to highlight a particularly perverse sin in their time. Not too long ago preachers just like you would have been saying the same trite lines about interracial marriage, the right to own slaves, the need for women to submit to the will of their husbands, etc.

    What disturbs me most is the fact that you, as a preacher, are leading people to believe that if they do not change their sin behavior they have no right to call themselves a “Christian” and aren’t anything more than Christian in name. I believe that directly contradicts Paul (Romans 7:14-25).

    (If anyone we knew was trapped in a burning building (in this instance a burning building of self-destructive behavior) we would fault any onlookers who if given the chance could have called out in an attempt to save them, but just numbly looked on. We should implore them to get out while there’s still time. So I say in love, Jen get out.)– Your statement implies that there is a time limit where she has to make a decision. I whole-heartedly disagree. No one knows Jennifer’s heart but herself and God. So, if she says and truly has, accepted the gift of Christ’s death and resurrection as her only chance for redemption then there’s no “time limit” to be imposed. And, what you have chosen not to see is that there was no need for anyone to rush in to the burning building. The person trapped inside had been given a set of fireproof gear. So, while they must be scared to they know they need to get out, yet can’t on their own, they also know that their clothes will protect them until their rescue arrives. Much in the same way, we are living in a sin world- trapped in a sin-infested body. Yet, through Christ’s death we were given armor (the Holy Spirit sealed within us) that will protect us until he comes again for us.

    We continue to sin is because we still have a sin nature (Romans 7:18-20). In other words, sinning is our default setting. This setting will be changed when Jesus comes back for us but until then, while the Holy Spirit helps us to greatly reduce our willful acts of sin, we can’t eliminate sin altogether. In the meantime God, chooses to see us as we will be after he’s perfected us— not as we are now (2 Cor. 5:21). He can do this because although Jesus only died once, He died for all time. No sin we commit is ever a surprise to Him. That means past present and future. (Hebr. 10:12). So, what makes you think that if someone is a homosexual they must “get right” before Jesus comes back?

    The only unforgivable sin is the refusal to accept the provision God has made for our sins in the death of His Son. So, if someone lives a homosexual lifestyle, yet has embraced Jesus Christ as their savior, they will inherit the kingdom of Heaven just like every other sinner. The only difference is that while they are here on this earth their relationship with the Father will not be as good as it could be. You aren’t saved because you live right. You’re saved because you believe Jesus died for your sins.

    Even though you say “… It is outright rebellion against God’s Word and degrades the loving act of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary as an unnecessary waste of time, life and effort…” I disagree– either the Lord’s blood has paid for ALL the sins of our life, or else it was an exercise in futility, or we’re all irretrievably lost. And, that is why all of Paul’s exhortations go beyond salvation and tell us to strive for victory over our sin nature. Paul never threatened us with the loss of our salvation for failing. In fact, one of his strongest pleas was that we strive to live up to that which we have already attained. (Phil 3:16) In other words, become in fact what we already are in faith. But even he couldn’t do it.

    So, it is my hope that homosexuals reading this will understand that it is YOUR duty to pray for those who persecute you: In Matt. 6:44 Jesus told us to pray for those who persecute us. Then He set the example by praying for the people who were persecuting Him while He hung on the cross (Luke 23:34). Steven did the same thing (Acts 7:60). “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:1). Christ loves you and died for you and does NOT expect you to be able to change before getting to Heaven. His gift is free for all. He wants you to come to Him, just as you are, because it is a futile mission to try to change yourself.

    Conversely, I sincerely hope that all Christians reading this will honestly assess their life and see if they have any besetting sins (sins we simply cannot stop committing). If you don’t have any besetting sins, praise the Lord. But dismissing someone else’s problem by saying they should just stop sinning shows an appalling lack of sensitivity. And if you don’t have any sins you can’t keep yourself from committing, why are you sinning at all?

  • You’re DISGUSTING!!!

  • Pastor Bob,

    You did pretty wellon Larry King, especially with the pressure you must have been under. I wish you would have mentioned the difference between being a sinner in this flesh, but hating it and desiring to please God, and the truth in 1John concerning remaining in a rebelious sinful lifestyle.

  • Nice post’s Claude. For the lucky few who attend Calvary Chapel, Horizon or any derivative and are fortunate enough to be smart and inquisitive on their own they will find the entire Calvary denomination (though they deny they are a denomination, they function as a strict one) organized in an unbiblical way. They “ordain” people that are almost new believers with little training or experience. Sure some go to CCBC but thats just years of listening to Chuck Smith tapes. If you are at a Calvary I suggest you begin questioning the theology of your church as well and when you get a bunch of backlash and pastors telling you not to worry about theology, turn the other way and run! Don’t dare question the rapture or bring up any historically reformed positions or you will be looked at as a non-believer practically. Why? You should be able to examine all views and decide what Scripture teaches but you won’t find that happening at Calvary/Horizon clones. Its funny how CC was found by Chuck Smith ministering to hippies, the outcasts of the culture at the time and now they are condemning the outcasts. Go read about Chuck Smith Jr. and his rifts with his Dad. Just Google and use common sense, you will be looking for a new church in no time.

  • Pastor Bob:

    After watching your talk on Larry King Live, my prayer for you that you take a look at Walter Wink’s article on homosexuality and the Bible. He fully agrees with you that the Bible takes a negative view of homosexual activity, in those few instances where it is mentioned at all. However, the Bible does not have a clear sex ethic, as you stated on CNN — rather, the Bible has a love ethic. And that love ethic doesn’t mean denigrating fellow Christians.

    In peace,
    David

  • Pastor Bob,

    I watched you on Larry King Live and just wanted to thank you for the genuine and sincere love you showed to Jennifer, while at the same time not watering down the truth of God’s word. I have always loved Jennifer’s music, and I am praying for her along with you and so many others.

    God bless you and your ministry,
    Ruth

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey John: Thanks for the reply. I emailed KWAVE 107.9 station manager about Bill Welsh of http://www.refugefm.com. Bill Welsh came out of Calvary Abq (Skip Heitzig) & Bill made Jesus Christ a freedom fighter. Everyone knows that a freedom fighter is a terrorist. But of course they keep this guy still on the radio.
    As I’ve been posting they rather be loyal to Calvary Chapel & not open & honest about the truth. If Benny Hinn said that they would be up in arms. But since it is one their own, you can hear crickets in HD radio.

  • As I listen to these videos and read through these blogs, there are several things that strike me.

    1. Although Jennifer has clearly been confronted with the truth that homosexuality is wrong, she remains defiant and unwilling to confront it. Instead, she is pointing the finger back at someone else saying “you are a sinner, too.” While that may be true to a lesser or larger degree, it doesn’t make her sin any less so. That is, two wrongs don’t make a right.

    2. Jennifer states that a sin is a sin is a sin. That is, we are all in sin every day, and therefore we have no right to judge each other in our own personal walks. If you read through the law, you will see that there were certain sins that were more grievous than others, and required a stricter judgment. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah was the only city in history to be completely destroyed specifically for this sin. That is to say, I don’t see anywhere in scripture where God destroyed a city because someone lies, cheats, or steals, yet we know these things to be sins as well. Clearly, there are different levels of sin, according to God.

    3. While the Bible does state that we should not judge others and will, in fact, be judged according to how we judge others, this doesn’t give us a free license to continue with a behavior that is abhorrent to God.

    4. Jennifer infers that it is not loving to bring to light her sin. I would say this to that; If you have a child about to run in front of a car, are you going to scream at him in warning to get out of the way? Or, would sounding that warning not be a loving thing to do, so therefore you just let him get run over by the car? This argument makes no sense, nor does Jennifer’s. Pastor Bob sounding the alarm that Jennifer is about to be hit by the car, so to speak, IS a loving thing to do. James 5:19-20: “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth, and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”

    5. Paul is very clear in Romans 6:11-14: “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God…for sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law but under grace.”

    6. Larry King made the inference that we are either born a homosexual or heterosexual, and that we should not judge the condition in which one is born and chose’s to live out his/her life. Personally, I believe homosexuality is a choice, that is, we are not born with the tendency. But that’s another argument. Let’s take it back a notch. Sex is a sin before marriage. Therefore, whether heterosexual or homosexual, we are to abstain prior to marriage. I am a single heterosexual, but chose to live a life of holiness to God, therefore I do not fornicate. Whether one considers himself/herself homosexual or heterosexual, we are called to abstinence – that is, holiness – or set-apartness for the Lord.

    7. Once we give ourselves to the Lord, we do not belong to ourselves or the world any longer. We belong to Christ. The Bible clearly states that once we have sold ourselves over to Christ we are to live according to His desires, and not our own. God disapproves of homosexuality, therefore it is wrong and we are to abstain from it. Can it be any more clear and simple than that? The problem is, we always want to justify our sins by trying to bend the rules.

    I’ve been where Jen is – not in homosexuality, but in a state of denial. My prayer is that she will turn back from her sin and follow after her God. Come back to her first love. As Jesus put it “Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.” Disobedience means disbelief. That is to say, we do not trust that which God has told us is right for us; or is/can be the Truth. Therefore, under these circumstances of willfully disobeying, would we not be saying “I do not believe”? Christ said, “if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Belief in Him encompasses obedience.

    It may sometimes feel devastating to do the right thing, but when we’re considering life eternal in either the arms of God or in eternal fire, the choice of doing the right thing over our “feelings” is sometimes required.

    We, as Christians, are not judging Jennifer, we simply prefer to see Jen in the arms of God because we love her.

  • Well said Bob. I watched the Larry King interview on Youtube and thought you did a fabulous job presenting God’s truth in love. Well done!

  • Pastor Bob- I watched the video with Larry, Jennifer, and yourself. I totally agree with what you said, and I also want to make note that you not only spoke about the issue with Larry and Jennifer, but to the world that views this. You made a statement that sin is sin, which speaks to all who have not entered the covenent offered to us through the death and resurrection of Christ. We, as believers, know we have to repent daily of our wrong doings, but it is up to ALL believers to stand up for what we believe and reach the lost and dying world with the “Good News”. Like someone posted in your blog, they are just like us. We need to remember where we were before Christ and share our story. Some people do not even grasp or understand the fact they are breaking God’s laws, and therefore condemned to eternal life in hell. Paul even stated that he did not know sin until he heard the law. Law to the proud and grace to the humble.

  • I watched the LKL interview and then came over here to read the blog, and I have to say Bob, I believe Jennifer Knapp is doing far more to spread the love of God than you are. I am a former Christian, and the church’s stance on and treatment of homosexuals had a lot to do with me rejecting Christianity.

    I see much more sin in this public judging of Jennifer than I do in her decision to lead an authentic life. How dare you.

  • Pastor Bob, I just watched the Larry King interview and I wanted to thank you for standing your ground. It is so hard to show someone love and stand firm at the same time. You did a fabulous job. My heart is broken for Jennifer but I will continue to pray for her and for her eyes to be opened. I will also keep you and your church in my prayers.

    In Him, Carly.

  • Beth–

    I completely agree. Jesus did not berate tax collectors, He simply asked them to follow Him. And once they chose to follow Him, He did not attack them about their former life (though it is human tendency to think about, and sometimes fall back into, one’s former life). He simply loved them and taught them without making them feel unworthy of His love.

    If Jesus, the son of God, chooses to look past our human sin and still show us love- why in the world do humans feel they have the right to point the finger.

    All need need is faith and love. Faith to believe and accept that Jesus came and died for the sins of all people, and love to hold on to til he comes again for his followers. Anyone who tells me any different is just as bad as a Pharisee.

  • I hope those reading these will realize there are two discussions happening regarding this blog. This is the other one: http://www.bobbotsford.com/2010/04/urgent-prayer-needed-pastor-bob-on-cnns-larry-king-live/comment-page-9/

    Obviously this debate will go on but for those that are homosexual there are Churches out there in the world that share in Christ’s love for all.

    In 1988 the United Church of Canada, that country’s largest Protestant denomination, affirmed that “a) All persons, regardless of their sexual orientation, who profess Jesus Christ and obedience to Him, are welcome to be or become full member of the Church; and b) All members of the Church are eligible to be considered for the Ordered Ministry.” In 2000, the Church’s General Assembly further affirmed that “human sexual orientations, whether heterosexual or homosexual, are a gift from God and part of the marvelous diversity of creation.”

    So please keep in mind there are Christians out there that will put the text of the Bible into perspective of the time it was written and as long as you have Christ in your heart and love God you will be welcomed.

    May God be with you.

  • Tracy,

    What you’re saying doesn’t hold true. We cannot take what mere men are saying over what God clearly states in His inspired word. But, for the sake of argument, let’s follow your path of thought and apply the perspective of “time” to the Bible on another sin. For example, radical Muslims believe it’s ok to commit murder in the name of Allah, so, if I decide to kill your kids, my defense could be “but that law is outdated! It’s ok that I murdered these kids because there just so happens to be a group of people that says it’s ok now! As a matter of fact, they do it all the time!”

    God sets the standard of Truth, and there’s no where in the Bible where He states that He has changed His mind on this issue. He’s the One that draws the line in the sand, not we humans. Therefore, the whole issue comes down to one question. Will we take God at His Word and therefore obey His law, or, will we decide that He is wrong and do it our own way?

    May God be with YOU as you work through these issues.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Question: “Does the inerrancy of the Bible only apply to the original manuscripts?”

    Answer: This is truly a difficult issue to grasp. Only the original autographs (original manuscripts written by the apostles, prophets, etc.) are under the divine promise of inspiration and inerrancy. The books of the Bible, as they were originally written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21), were 100% inerrant, accurate, authoritative, and true. There is no Biblical promise that copies of the original manuscripts would equally be inerrant or free from copyist errors. As the Bible has been copied thousands of times over thousands of years, some copyist errors have likely occurred.

    How do we deal with this? First, it is important to remember that the biblical manuscripts we have today are in 99% agreement with one another. Yes, there are some minor differences, but the vast majority of the biblical text is identical from one manuscript to another. Most of the differences are in punctuation, word endings, minor grammatical issues, word order, etc. – issues easily explainable as scribal mistakes. No important theological or biblical issue is thrown into doubt by any supposed error or contradiction. Biblical manuscripts from the 15th century agree completely with manuscripts from the 3rd century. We can have absolute confidence that the Bible we have today is almost exactly identical to what the apostles and prophets wrote 2000+ years ago.

    Second, we should not be quick to say “Oh, that is just a scribal error.” The vast majority, if not all, of Bible “errors” can be explained in a logical and believable manner. Those that cannot by explained, or are very difficult to explain – could very well have an answer that we simply do not know at this point. Just because we cannot find a solution does not mean that a solution doesn’t exist. Believing there to be a scribal error must be the absolute last resort in any supposed Bible “error.”

    Ultimately, though, it is possible that errors have crept into our modern manuscripts and translations of the Bible. Copyists and translators are human beings and they make mistakes. The fact that the Bible is incredibly accurate is a testimony to its inspiration and preservation by God.

    Can we still trust the Bible? Absolutely! The Bible translations we have today are God’s Word. The Bible today is just as authoritative as it was in the 1st century A.D. We can completely trust the Bible as being God’s message to us today. Yes, the biblical promises of inspiration and inerrancy only apply directly to the original manuscripts. That does not impact, though, whether our modern Bibles are accurate and authoritative. God’s Word endures forever, despite the occasional failings and mistakes of copyists and translators.

    Recommended Resource: The Big Book of Bible Difficulties by Geisler & Howe.

  • “May God be with YOU as you work through these issues.”

    That’s the rub Barbara I don’t have an issue to work through. The point I am trying to make that you are missing is there are many “Truths” in the Bible that Christians today do not follow because they changed their perspective on the text as their knowledge of the subjects grew. The homosexual parts that keep getting brought up say they turned away from God – homosexuals today are not doing that. The other part was specifically aimed at a pagan ritual that was happening at that time period, men where raping younger men, etc.. Just like Christians put polygamy, slavery, living with your rapist into perspective by the historical facts so should you do that now. Especially since it’s being shown that sexual orientation is not a choice.

  • Jennipher,

    We do well to remember Christ died for our sins; not that we may continue in our sin, but that we would “go and sin no more”. Christ said, “if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Belief in Him encompasses obedience. We know this because He also said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments”. The question is, do you love Him? -So much so that you would give you life to Him just as He has done for us? He gave everything for us….everything. Do we have the right to hold back?

    That is to say, do you love Him only to the point that He says “sin no more”? Reminds me of the rich man who said to Christ “I follow all of the laws, so what else should I do to be saved?” And Christ, knowing his heart and what holds him back from the kingdom of God, replied “go and sell all you have and give it all to the poor”. But the man went away sad, because he could not give the one thing that he loved more than God – his money.

    Does this not say to Him, in essence, “I love you and your teachings, but just not enough to follow your commandments in the one area of my life that I want to hold on to – you cannot be God in all of my life, just in the areas I will accept you.”

    I ask you to understand, we who stand for the Truth, do not stand as legalists, but as loving brothers and sisters with a heart of love for you. I would hope others would do the same with me when they see me in error, lest I stumble and fall and endanger myself:

    James 5:19-20: “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth, and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will SAVE HIM FROM DEATH and cover over a multitude of sins.”

    We love you, Jen

  • Hi Pr. Bob,

    I did not have a chance to watch Larry King Live, but I went to the internet and were able to see ffotage of the interview. I want to thank you for standing up for the truth and saying NO to sin. Jennifer may not understand what you did, but you did it in love.

    I was very aggravated to hear Tedd trying to confuse what you were saying and fortifying Jennifers choices – that was very ungodly. I was even more upset when Larry gave Tedd the closing statement trying to erase what you did say – that was evil. But I was very proud of you and will pray that Jennifer get out of her confusion and come back to God.

    God Bless you
    Roger

  • Every year, several New Testament manuscripts handwritten in the original Greek format are discovered. The latest substantial find was in 2008, when 47 new manuscripts were discovered in Albania; at least 17 of them unknown to Western scholars.

    Textual scholar Bart Ehrman disagrees: “It is true, of course, that the New Testament is abundantly attested in the manuscripts produced through the ages, but most of these manuscripts are many centuries removed from the originals, and none of them perfectly accurate. They all contain mistakes – altogether many thousands of mistakes. It is not an easy task to reconstruct the original words of the New Testament…”

    Ancient Jewish scribes developed many practices to protect copies of their scriptures from error. Their methods resulted in significant variations among texts arising at an average rate of just under one consonant in every 1,500.

  • Barbara I’ll ask you the same question. The part you don’t seem to grasp is many homosexuals do believe in Christ’s love and God. I know you are going to keep pounding the sin part right. Well guess what you are a sinner too who also believes in Christ and you will continue to sin. And yes since you believe yourself to be so versed in the bible then when you do sin you knowing do so. Now what?

  • Why would anyone on this blog think a public posting like Bob’s was the “Loving” thing to do? Why wouldn’t you talk to the person directly? Does this mean we should all be blogging about people’s sin? I really don’t get it. If he had a relationship with her he would have known how to contact her, if he didn’t (which she seems to indicate they didn’t and he says they only had dinner like 7 years ago) then he should have just prayed for her in private and maybe sought a way to contact her. There is no biblical defense for this public blogging about her sins.

  • Barbara-

    The difference between homosexuals and the rich man is that they do not say “I followed all of the laws” in fact, being homosexual is not doing that. Therefore you cannot compare the two. Jesus said that all we have to do is believe that the Father sent the Son. So, you can keep your legalistic view of Christianity. I, personally, do love the Lord and accept His sacrifice as my only means of salvation.

    I do not stand with a false sense of pride and think “I must follow these commands because Jesus’ blood was not enough to secure my place in Heaven”.

    I know my heart, as does God, and because I know where I stand I will not let you or anyone else cause me to doubt that my name is written in the Book of Life and I will receive my white stone with a new name once I get to Heaven. I pray I will see you there too.

  • WE ARE IN THIS WORLD BUT NOT IN THIS WORLD,GOD DOES NOT LIKE SIN AND THIS HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN, IT IS NOT DISLIKING THE PERSON BUT THE SIN ON THEM

  • Tracy,

    Your blog sounds almost like you may be judging me…just as you are accusing me.

    The difference is, as we read God’s book of instruction (the Bible), we become aware of what we’re doing wrong, work on making it right, and begin to move away from our sins. We are in a state of growing away from evil and moving towards holiness. However, homosexuals, who chose to stay in that lifestyle, chose to stay in their sin. This not only goes for homosexuals, this goes for anyone who choses to stay in their sin. That is to say, they do not move forward and away from it.

    We refer to the Word because it hold’s God’s standard, not our own. It’s not our opinion, it is His. We do what He says is right, not what we chose is right for us. We hold ourselves to His standards, not our own.

    “So when you, a mere man, pass judgement on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgement? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgement will be revealed. God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger…All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judge by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous, but those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2

  • Jennipher,

    In answer to your comment: “The difference between homosexuals and the rich man is that they do not say “I followed all of the laws” in fact, being homosexual is not doing that. Therefore you cannot compare the two. Jesus said that all we have to do is believe that the Father sent the Son.

    I refer you back to the first paragraph of my blog to you:

    We do well to remember Christ died for our sins; not that we may continue in our sin, but that we would “go and sin no more”. Christ said, “if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Belief in Him encompasses obedience. We know this because He also said, “if you love me, you will keep my commandments”.

    In love, Barbara

  • Barbara,

    By the way, if humans could really be trusted to “go and sin no more”, if God truly believed we had the capability to stop sinning, why in the world does every Christian continue to sin and why would God send his son to die?

    If we could stop sinning, God could have left the old testament ritual of sacrifice in place without needing His son to die. How dare you believe that mere human beings have any influence on the GIFT of redemption. God clearly saw our need for a savior. So, when Jesus died, he died for all sins over all periods of time – past, present, future. And since God foreknew every sin that would be committed he must have known that the sinful human nature could not be stopped until we are given new bodies that are free from the corruption of sin.

    I mean, c’mon, Jesus warned Peter that he would deny knowing Christ and yet Peter still did it!! Did Christ say- “Well, Peter- I told you so! Now you’re damned to Hell!” No, he died for that sin just as he died for my sin and for your sin. And, though I might be virtually stoned for saying this: Denying Christ is a bigger sin than homosexuality. Why? Because homosexuals can do one thing that deniers cannot- homosexuals can enter Heaven through faith and acceptance of Jesus’ death as their sin payment. Deniers must first relinquish that title.

    Come, Lord Jesus, Come. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah!

  • Jennipher, sweetheart, you make me smile. I have a special place in my heart for you. You’re right…I CAN almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah – He’s right at the door. All I ask is that you be absolutely sure in your decision before Christ comes, because I, too, want to see YOU in heaven.

    In answer to your blog, have to refer you to my blog to Tracy above:

    The difference is, as we read God’s book of instruction (the Bible), we become aware of what we’re doing wrong, work on making it right, and begin to move away from our sins. We are in a state of growing away from evil and moving towards holiness. However, homosexuals, who chose to stay in that lifestyle, chose to stay in their sin. This not only goes for homosexuals, this goes for anyone who choses to stay in their sin. That is to say, they do not move forward and away from it.

    “So when you, a mere man, pass judgement on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgement? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgement will be revealed. God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger…All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judge by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous, but those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2

  • Barbara,

    The first thing is to realize that the very first time anyone sincerely asks the Lord to save them, He will. He marks them and puts His Holy Spirit within them to signify that they are His forever. (Ephes. 1:13-14).

    Now, I want to be clear, I have never said that living as a homosexual was okay. I have only said that I don’t believe it can be changed. Just like the color of skin, it is something cannot change. And, while I believe people can abstain from acting out their desires, they cannot abstain from thinking them or feeling the way they do.

    Like everyone else, homosexuals can confess and be forgiven (1 John 1:9) no matter how many times they fall, because every sin of their life is already known and was paid for at the cross. They’re not working to achieve salvation here, they’re working to achieve victory. The devil knows he can’t have them for eternity, so he’s trying to make them as miserable as he can while he can.

    Jesus said: Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt. 7:1) and unless we’re absolutely certain that we’re free from all sin in our behavior, it would be very dangerous to judge another for theirs. And as John wrote: If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)

    Paul wrote: “So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” (Romans 7:21-25)

    Having agonized on the cross for every sinful act of their lives, Jesus could no more abandon them now than He did then. He gave them the faith to believe that He would save them (Ephes. 2:8-9) and has accepted responsibility for keeping them saved. (2 Cor. 1:21-22) When they fall into the pit of despair, He comes to pull them out. (Matt. 12:11-12) When they wander away from the flock, he goes in search of them. (Luke 15:4) Having begun a good work in them, He is faithful and will carry it on to completion, (Phil. 1:6) not losing a single one of them along the way. (John 6:38-40).

    Lastly, Sheep wander away all the time, that’s why they need a shepherd. If he saves us and then loses us then he has violated His father’s will.(John 6:38-40) Finally, the qualification for salvation is belief, not behavior. (John 3:16) The Bible cannot contradict itself.

  • Jennipher,

    I agree with you that the Bible cannot contradict itself. But how then, do you come to terms with Christ Himself, when he says “if you love me you will keep my commandments”,

    And Paul in 1 Thes. 4:3-8: “It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who give you his Holy Spirit.”

    …or Timothy 2:25-26: “Those who oppose him (God) he (the believer) must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

    …or Hebrews 10:29 “How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? and 12:16 “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; withoutholiness no one will see the Lord…see to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected.”

    …Or 1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness.”

    And finally, Christ and his warnings to the churches, in Revelation 2:20-23: “Nevertheless I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultry with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you ACCORDING TO YOUR DEEDS.”

    The message of the Bible isn’t that if you simply “believe” you will be saved, “for even the demons believe”. But with belief comes a repentant heart. The whole idea is to move TOWARDS a holy lifestyle, not stay in it. Sure, we stumble, but God knows our hearts…his question is, are we moving towards repentance, or are we chosing to stay in the sin?

    I guess my question would be, if you agree that the Bible cannot contradict itself, and you read verses such as these, How is it that anyone can still believe that it’s ok with God to continue in this lifestyle (or any sinful lifestyle for that matter) and still hold the belief that in the end you will be saved?

    In love,
    Barbara

  • Pastor Bob, you did a great job of proclaiming the truth of what Scripture says, verses what Jenifer Knapp is saying. I too have been praying for her as I too heard rumors about here many years ago. My desire is that she will become broken in spirit and come back to walking with Jesus in spirit and in truth. At this moment, it does not appear that she feels that she has anything to repent about. That is sad!
    Your brother and fellow worker,
    Jeff

  • Barbara,

    The 1 Thes. verses that you quote deal with a man taking another man’s wife and committing sexual impurity with her.- which makes it irrelevant for this discussion with me.

    The 2 Timothy verses you quote have to do with non-believers rejecting the word of God (little “t” in truth) not God himself (big “T”)- which makes it irrelevant for this discussion with me.

    Pertaining to Hebrews 10:29, the sinning that’s been referred to all through the letter is relying on the Old Covenant sacrifices to maintain that which has been freely given under the New. No sacrifice will end the interruption in our relationship with God that our ongoing sin causes. Only confession and forgiveness can do that. Why? Because we confess when we expect to be forgiven. It’s an act of faith and what the Lord wants more than anything is for us to live by faith. That’s why He made it the only condition attached to our salvation.

    You only quoted part of 1 Peter 2:24. The whole verse reads: “He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.”– By His wounds, not by your works or strivings or ability to stop sinning, you are healed.

    You quote Revelation 2:20-23 (why you refer to it as his warning to the churches is unclear since this message was meant for one of seven particular churches: Thyatira). But let’s go further. Revelation goes on to say “So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.”

    “I guess my question would be, if you agree that the Bible cannot contradict itself, and you read verses such as these, How is it that anyone can still believe that it’s ok with God to continue in this lifestyle (or any sinful lifestyle for that matter) and still hold the belief that in the end you will be saved?”

    I’ll refer you back to what I said in a previous post: “Now, I want to be clear, I have never said that living as a homosexual was okay. I have only said that I don’t believe it can be changed. Just like the color of skin, it is something cannot change. And, while I believe people can abstain from acting out their desires, they cannot abstain from thinking them or feeling the way they do.”

    Anyone (including demons and satan himself) can believe- I said: “All need need is faith and love. Faith to believe and accept that Jesus came and died for the sins of all people, and love to hold on to til he comes again for his followers. Anyone who tells me any different is just as bad as a Pharisee.” — Emphasis on believe AND accept. Demons and satan do not believe they have a need for Jesus to be their sacrifice- I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would be destined for Hell without ACCEPTING AND BELIEVING that Jesus is the one who was sent from God to die in my place.

    You also say “Sure, we stumble, but God knows our hearts…his question is, are we moving towards repentance, or are we chosing to stay in the sin?” You might question if others are “moving towards repentance or choosing to stay in the sin” , but God wants to know if we have chosen to believe in the Son that He sent. Those who insist upon being judged by their works will be granted their wish. Sadly the emphasis on these religious works has clouded the true message of the gospel to the extent that some life-long “believers” never come to know the Lord on a personal basis. The Lord will judge them according to the motives of their hearts. Are their good works performed out of gratitude for the free gift of salvation He offers, or they done in a futile effort to earn it on their own?

    Some forget that grace plus works still equals works. The two are like oil and water, they don’t mix. “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)

    Paul’s letter to the Galatians (Galatians 3): “You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?”

    Again, because this seems to be getting lost in the continuous debate, let me state a concise version of my posts:

    I believe homosexuality is a sin. (Please stop using this as a debate point.)

    I believe every person who has ever walked this earth has been a sinner (excluding Jesus). (We agree, so let’s move past this too).

    I believe that Jesus’ death paid for sins of all time: past, present, future. (All sins, not just the one we can stop.)

    I believe that all that is needed for salvation is faith to believe and accept that Jesus came and died for their sins. (Faith alone, not faith plus works probably the biggest debate point)

    I believe that those living in a continual state of sin will experience a diminished relationship with God, but WILL NOT lose their salvation and SHOULD NOT have their salvation questioned by mere human beings. (I guess this is the 2nd biggest debate point).

    I, too, write this with love.

  • Hey Pastor,

    I saw the Larry King show you were on with Jennifer and that other pastor…

    I just wanted to say that I commend you in standing for the word of God (even when everyone else around you was trying to avoid the topic of sin BEING what it is… sin!)

    Stay strong in the faith Pastor! I’m glad that there is still a remnant of God’s people on this planet…

    God bless you!

  • Jennipher,

    I’m glad you wrote back. I feared I lost you there for a little while. Thank you for writing with love as well. I’m enjoying my dialog with you for that reason.

    I think perhaps you’re getting following the law mixed up with legalism. The Jews followed the law out of love and obedience to their God. The law was never meant to be distorted by those Jews who added to it and made it into legalism. Yeshua (Jesus) was trying to clarify that the laws were intended to be ACTED OUT toward God as a means of them drawing close to Him in relationship – as a means to express their love and respect for him. But the “teachers of the law” had distorted it and made it more of a heavy “yoke” around the necks of the Jews than was originally intended.

    One of the goals of Jesus’ mission was to explain to the Jews that their works would not justify them (I think we both agree on that) and to clarify their mistakes so that they may be saved. But included in message was also the fact that He stressed very vividly that our service to the Lord was to come from the heart – not that it was to be abolished or ignored to suit our own purposes or desires.

    He said the law was NOT done away with: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven (I think you might have referred to this above), but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    But He doesn’t stop there…”For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    He also said “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (…sounds kinda like judgement to me…)

    He even goes so far to say “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (He talks about father, mother, son and daughter here…I wonder what He would say about choosing a homosexual lover under immoral circumstances over Him? Or should we even have to take it that far? It sounds like He makes it pretty clear at just father and mother.)

    Then Jesus said “Whoever DOES the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

    Again, he says “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to WHAT HE HAS DONE.” (I don’t see anything about ONLY ‘believing in Him’ in that passage. Perhaps it’s because He expected us to be clear that believing in Him ENCOMPASSES obedience as well.)

    Decisions we make will impact us. Perhaps you feel you may make it into heaven by the skin of your chinny chin chin, but I ask you – do you really want to stand so dangerously close to the edge when Christ Himself makes it pretty clear that those who practice such things will be judged? I realize from your blog above that you think you’ll suffer a diminished relationship with Him in heaven for indulging in (what you term) as your sinful state, but there are many times in scripture when he’s clear that we, through our actions and decisions to thumb our noses at his laws, are (can, or will be) cut off from Him. You know that, Jennifer. I know you do.

    So the next question would be, what does He consider “unclean” or sinful? Certainly it is not the legalism that (some) of the Jews were pursuing – we both agree on that. In fact, He drives this point home and tells us clearly what He considers to be unclean: Matthew 15:18-20: “But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean’. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what makes a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make a man ‘unclean’.

    Finally, I will refer you to Jude. which also drives the point home clearly.

    “Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
    Though you already know this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They (they refers to all of them here) serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
    In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these speak abusively against whatever they do not understand and what things they do understand by instinct, like reasoning animals – these are the very things that destroy them.
    Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
    These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm – shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted – twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame, wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
    Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly ACTS they have DONE in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
    But dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
    But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
    Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear-hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
    To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy – to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    Jennipher, you can’t take and utilize only the parts of scripture that work for you and your situation. This would amount to being a hearer who only deludes himself/herself. And you aren’t that foolish. You well know that we have to take the entire Book as it is written and intended. You have admitted yourself that you are living in sin. The Lord is giving you a clear warning. I find that fact alone fascinating, because I have seen others who have not received such a blessing. It is as if He is reaching out his hand personally to you and saying “Jennipher, please come home before it is too late.”

    It’s your choice whether you will turn your back on Him, or take His hand. But please, please, try to understand…we are not condemning you; you alone have endangered yourself already through your own actions/admission. Instead we are extending our hand to you to (hopefully) help you out of the fire through the love of Christ, and we stand ready with open arms for you. You know, obviously by your blogs, what is right and what is wrong. And I’d be willing to bet that you’re intelligent enough to know you can’t have it both ways. You can’t be “lukewarm” or sit on the fence between both. Christ did not intend for you to. He is the one that gave us the “either/or” choice – in WHATEVER sin we find ourselves in. He understands when we fall, but as previously stated, it’s the moving forward – the intentions of our hearts, that He is concerned with and will judge. As He said, you chose, this day, whom you will serve.

  • Barbara,

    I’m pretty sure that I have been the one going back and explaining the verses you have used because it seems as though you have taken and utilized only the parts of scripture that work for you and your argument. I don’t believe that is the motive, but before you use a particular verse or passage it would be a good idea to look at the surrounding verses to see what was really being talked about. Because as you said “You well know that we have to take the entire Book as it is written and [INTENDED].” But, let’s move on.

    “I realize from your blog above that you think you’ll suffer a diminished relationship with Him in heaven for indulging in (what you term) as your sinful state, but there are many times in scripture when he’s clear that we, through our actions and decisions to thumb our noses at his laws, are (can, or will be) cut off from Him. You know that, Jennifer. I know you do.”

    Wrong. I believe that those living in a continual state of sin will experience a diminished relationship with God, on earth. In Heaven, we will be made like Jesus and given new names where our old life no longer applies. Yes, there will be some that have more crowns than me because of their works, but, I digress, I do not care about crowns.

    “Perhaps you feel you may make it into heaven by the skin of your chinny chin chin, but I ask you – do you really want to stand so dangerously close to the edge when Christ Himself makes it pretty clear that those who practice such things will be judged?”

    I certainly don’t see God, or Christ, as the big bad wolf. And I don’t see myself as a little pig rushing around trying to hide from Him. And, as far as my life being judged- I am prepared for my works to be put through the fire and a lot of it to turn to ash. And, I am prepared for God to look at me, deserving Hell, and tell me that I am forgiven because of the mercy of Jesus.

    Jude wrote the letter in response to certain false teachers who had infiltrated the church with their heresy that God’s grace gave Christians the freedom to commit immoral acts and to sin all the more. If you would look back at my previous posts you will see that I have said, more than once, that homosexuality is a sin. I have never said that because someone feels it that we, as the body of Christ, must condone it. What you need to realize, though, is that the targeted people who Jude spoke of were not believers. They were false teachers. They are the same people that Peter spoke of in 2 Peter chapter 2. They are people who:

    A. Change the grace of God, which forgives sins, into a license and freedom to sin all the more and commit immoral acts

    B. They deny Jesus Christ as Lord

    I’m 100% positive I do not fall into either category.

    The victorious Christian life is not obtained on the basis of performance, but rather on the basis of grace. God’s grace continues to set us free from legalism, and instead allows us to become expressions of Jesus who lives in and through us (see Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:1, Romans 6:1-15).

    Legalism – the attempt to justify ourselves before God through good works – can never satisfy God. There are plenty of “good people”. But, we’ll just refer to it as “performance-based living”.

    Because performance-based living “is so deeply rooted in human nature, the entire world, not just the Christian world, is filled with people who either thrive on it or who are constantly striving to extricate themselves from it. But apart from the applied grace of God – the exact opposite of performance-based living – nothing more than superficial relief is ever realized by anyone, Christian or not.” (Excerpt from the book “Grace Plus Nothing”)

    Galatians 2:16-21: “…know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 1If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

    God, knowing that no mere human could ever live without breaking His laws, sent His Son to abide all the laws- never breaking a single one. Jesus did this so that, if by faith we trust in Him, His blood would cover all of our sins that we might have righteousness in the eyes of God.

    Lastly, Barbara, you jump to conclusions. I am certain that I have never said that I am homosexual. You assume (and we all know what that does). It’s almost like taking certain parts of the Bible and using it to justify what your itching ears want to hear. I am simply trying to be heard for a group of people that no one wants to listen to. Too many people want to bludgeon homosexuals for their sins, and never give them the time or credit to be able to say what they think and feel. Too many people try to their pain, by telling them to “just stop” or risk suffering Hell. Too many people form legalistic views for themselves and don’t take time to hear a persons heart and words. If you had stopped, and listened to what I was saying, you would have seen that from beginning to end. But, instead you chose to see what you wanted. You inferred what you wanted. You did the opposite of what you said- you judged, not loved, me. And, I pray that you don’t make the same mistake again to someone who might not be as secure in their faith as I am.

    This is the last post I’m writing. If you, or anyone, would like to talk to me by email: JRLucky09@gmail.com.

  • Barbara

    I will say the same thing to you as I did Mr. Sunset.

    The point I am trying to make is you can point to the bible keep trying to convince the homosexual beings of this world they are choosing to live in sin, but what you are not comprehending is even you are choosing to continue to live in sin. So everything you keep saying regarding this topic also applies to you. I don’t know where you live or how you live but if I was a betting person, which I am not, I going to “assume” you are surrounded by wealth. If you have pictures hanging on your walls, that is a want and not a need (meaning you have wealth) that is a sin, if you have a dishwasher that is a want and not a need, which is a sin. Obviously you have a computer and access to the internet that is a want and not a need, which is a sin. If you have more bedrooms with furniture in them that is a want and not a need, that is a sin. Get the picture? Unless you are living a life similar to Gandhi’s you are choosing a life of sin because you continually surround yourself with wealth. You will always be a sinner and this is only one example mind you. Barabara read the word of God a repent now before it is too late. Oh, and please remember this comes from a place of love Barbara. I am very concerned about your soul.

    “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth”

    This is why I believe that so many get turned off by the radical Christians like yourself because you claim you are pointing out another person’s sin in love not realizing the hypocrisy of your accusations. That is your ego or as some would like to claim devil inside you – and that is a sin. If the radical Christians don’t’ get their act together more and more will continue to be turned away from God and will not be saved. For me I try to be as humble as I possibly can in this crazy world of ours so that I can at least get a conversation going about Christ’s love without coming off so righteous that I actually look like a hypocrite.

  • Jennipher you rock! God Bless you. See you on the other side!

    I too am signing off.

  • I want to thank you with all that I am! Seriously i just watched the video from Larry Kings show. It was very very obvious that you were there to preach GODS WORD! You opened your mouth and the Holy Spirit poured out of you! It was amazing. Not for one second did i think that you were there for yourself or there to judge. I am so estatic that a MAN OF GOD was there to talk with her! I pray that people can realize that it is not the sinner that Jesus hates it is the sin and we cannot walk in sin and with God knowingly! You did an AWESOME job of preaching the gospel. You were def being attacked by people on your veiw but the thing is, it is not your veiw. It is Jesus Christ’s veiw. Therefore it is not you that they are disagreeing with it is Jesus’ word. The absolute Truth. Thank You so much for following after His heart!

  • It strikes me that the point of this entire conversation his been missed, or perhaps skipped over, entirely. In all of the scriptures I quoted, it was meant to point out that it is clear that homosexuality and sexual immorality are considered sin. Secondly, it is also clear that we are all called to move forward into holiness. There is not a place in scripture which allows for us to justify our sin and stay in it.

    I respectfully defer my comments back to our Lord and Savior:

    He said the law was NOT done away with: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven (I think you might have referred to this above), but whoever PRACTICES AND TEACHES these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (hmm…sounds very much like Christ infers action on our part)

    If we do away with the Law, then that includes the 10 commandments, and, as Christ said, justice, mercy and faithfulness. By the way, what is faithfulness? Does not faithfulness infer action as well?

    But He doesn’t stop there…”For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (action)

    He also said “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE (action) is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE (action) is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (…sounds kinda like judgement to me…)

    He even goes so far to say “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.” (action)

    Then Jesus said “Whoever DOES the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (action)

    Again, He says “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me (action). For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to WHAT HE HAS DONE.” (I don’t see anything about ONLY ‘believing in Him’ in that passage. Perhaps it’s because He expected us to be clear that believing in Him ENCOMPASSES obedience (action) as well.)

    The scripture, indeed the very words of Christ Himself, begs the question of obedience (action). Because we chose to obey Christ and his teachings out of love and respect for what He has done for us by dying on the cross for our sins, doesn’t give us free reign to chose which of his laws we will abide by and which ones we will not. That would be like saying, “I murdered your kids, but that’s ok – I’m forgiven!”

    And I beg to differ: my obedience (action) out of love for Him and what He has done for me is not legalism. Asking anyone to reconsider their behavior is not legalism – it is love.

    Belief in Christ means that we have a change of heart and turn away from our sin and repent (action). Otherwise, he says, we do not believe in His words. That is, if we decide that we will only believe in Christ, but not his words, then, in essence, we are not believing in Him; we are rejecting Him. Christ is clear on this point: “Unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins.”

    We can’t say, “yeah, I believe in you, but not in this one area of my life…I don’t believe that what You’ve said is immoral is the truth for me in this are of my life, so I’ll be my own god in this area – you can have the rest.” That’s relativism.

    This is love – to tell the Truth. It is not judgment, it is not legalism. And it is simply not fair to call it that or utilize it as a backdrop for an argument towards willfull disobedience.

    Whether or not Christ’s own words are accepted is up to the individual. Still, I am filled with a profound sense of saddness of those willing to live in blindness to the Truth.

    And yes, IN LOVE, Barbara

  • Yes we are all SINNERs, but dont have to live any longer and we should be continually becoming into “Christs-likeness” and “being Holy as I am Holy” and God intention for intimacy is man and woman in the commitment of marriage- whether your married or not gay or straight unless you’re married any sexual sin outside of marriage is a sin. She is using the “interpenetration” of the sacred text is her way of saying she can interprete it any way she wants…
    dont go on sinning any more.

  • Its all about pluralism and relativism…how can we come to the throne of grace and not be open and honest about things that separate us….God created man for women..in the beginning..in the garden..this was God purpose and his Will….yes LOVE is teh most important but when we have any sin its separates us and creates divison between us and God. You cannot have two masters. For you will love one and hate the other. Yes I do feel that lying is just as big of a sin but deal with it and align that issue with Gods heart. God is more concerned about not being of the world as he is with Loving people. Dont change the Trugh to fit your issues, change your issues to meet Gods standard for Holiness

  • I googled about the laws Christians need to follow and found this perspective between the new and old Testament. It’s only discussing about keeping the sabbath holy but he discusses laws. I have to ponder his argument I must admit.

    “The question about God’s law ought to be put in these terms: Which “laws of God” are Christians to have written on their heart, and which are they obliged to keep? Does that obligation include keeping the Sabbath day holy? Let’s begin by looking at one of several New Testament scriptures that talk about keeping the commandments of God. Revelation 12:17 is one of those Scriptures. What are the “commandments of God” that Christians are to obey?

    There is an important principle to consider here. That is, we must be careful to understand the words “law” and “commandment” when we find them before the giving of the old covenant in the Old Testament, and especially after the new covenant was instituted in the New Testament. We need to be careful how we understand and apply the words “law” or “commandments” when we see them in various places in the Bible. If we casually refer to these words when they are used in Scripture—and say they mean that Christians must keep the old covenant law—we can lead ourselves astray.

    The fact is, we cannot claim that the words “law” or “commandments” always refer to the Ten Commandments, or the Mosaic law as a system. When we claim this, we are “reading back” our already-held belief that Christians must keep every one of the Ten Commandments in their entirety, as well as the Mosaic law. But we must allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

    For example, Christians must keep the “law of Christ,” which the Holy Spirit puts into our hearts (Galatians 6:2; Romans 8:2). But it is certainly not the entire set of ceremonial, sacrificial and civil regulations found in the Mosaic law from Exodus through Deuteronomy. Otherwise, Christians would have to obey every single law found in those books, including the purification rites, the sacrificial laws, the priestly laws, and physical circumcision. But we know these laws are not to be kept by Christians. The book of Hebrews and the New Testament makes this clear.

    The point is that we need to be careful when we read about “commandments” in the Bible—particularly in the New Testament. We should not confuse them with the Ten Commandments as a group, or the package of legal requirements (the Law of Moses) upon which the old covenant was based. The issue is not whether we are to keep the Ten Commandments or the old covenant Mosaic laws as a group. The question is, which commandments are Christians to obey?

    The answer is, we are to teach the commandments of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:20). What did Jesus say in John 14:15? He said, “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” Matthew concludes his gospel with the same thought about obeying Jesus’ commandments. Here he says: “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20).

    But what did Jesus command? Well, he told Jews still living under the old covenant to keep the purification rites of the old covenant, for example (Luke 5:14). We know from Hebrews that Christians don’t need to keep these ceremonial regulations. To which commandments, then, was Jesus referring?

    He summarized them in John 15:12: “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.” What Jesus talked about—what he commanded—was that his disciples should love each other selflessly. This is a tall order indeed. His commands had to do with loving neighbor and God, not keeping ceremonial regulations such as not working or avoiding personal pleasures on the Sabbath. But this shouldn’t surprise us, for he said that the greatest commandment is to love God, and the second greatest is to love our fellow human beings. (Two of the most important commandments are to believe in Jesus Christ and to love one another, as 1 John 3:24 tells us.)

    The orientation of the new covenant is to Christ and the cross, not to Moses and the tables of stone. The great sermon of the new covenant is not the one given at Mt. Sinai, but by Jesus Christ, in his Sermon on the Mount. There he began to explain the laws of the new covenant.

    Similarly, let’s ask what we mean by “God’s law.” What commandments of God are Christians obliged to obey? When we think of the aspects of God’s law that are eternal, we see the kinds of principles that govern our conduct in relationship primarily to other people. That is, we shouldn’t steal, be drunkards, bear false witness or slander, be sexually immoral, be greedy or arrogant, and so on. The New Testament contains ample teaching in these areas.

    The eternal aspect of God’s law also tells us to love God with all our soul and mind and strength. This tells us we shouldn’t be idolaters and have any thing or any god in place of the true one. In that sense, this law also reflects principles of an eternal, moral law.

    The New Testament is filled with admonitions not to break these “spiritual-moral laws,” if that’s what we want to call them. The book of James discusses many of these moral failures as examples of the breaking of the “royal law” of loving your neighbor as yourself (2:8). Some Scriptures contain what are called “sin lists.” These mention a number of wrong human actions that God’s spiritual-moral law would prevent, if followed. (For three examples, see Mark 7:20-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:16-24.)

    To break the spiritual-moral law of God described above is to be a wicked and sinful person. To follow this law of God is to exhibit the “fruit” of the Holy Spirit, and thus to be in concert with the will of God. Those are the commandments of God that Revelation 12:17 tells us to follow.

    Probably most—or even all—the spiritual-moral laws one might think of can be found somewhere in both the New and the Old Testament. The Law of Moses is heavily sprinkled with these laws. Nine of the Ten Commandments, the centerpiece of the Mosaic law, are moral-type laws of one sort or another. The first three commandments can be thought of as spiritual-moral in that they tell us not to worship anything that is not the true God. Breaking these laws is idolatry, a sin that is mentioned time and again in the New Testament.

    However, we are only partially correct in saying that the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic laws are spiritual-moral in nature. The problem is that all of its laws do not all fit into this category. The law of Moses also includes ceremonial as well as spiritual-moral laws.

    The Sabbath day, even though it is in the Ten Commandments, must be counted as a ceremonial law. We can look at the situation in this way. A spiritual-moral law would have no exceptions. It’s not enough for us to refrain from stealing, greed or sexual immorality on one day and commit it on six others. We can’t refrain from worshipping idols on one day but do so on the other six. These practices are intrinsically wrong, and are contrary to eternal, moral laws.

    But the Sabbath, in its major old covenant regulation, forbids work on one specific day each week. However, work is not an evil, but something that is a necessary part of life. In fact, work is permitted on the other six days of the week. In contrast, lying is always wrong because it is intrinsically a violation of a spiritual-moral law. Making a graven image for purposes of worship or being disobedient to parents is always a sin.

    Yet, working is not wrong and was only ceremonially banned on the Sabbath and the annual festivals in a certain situation, that is, when the old covenant was in force. Working, per se, is not sin. Its opposite, laziness, is condemned as morally unsound (1 Timothy 5:8; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-12).

    The principle when speaking of “God’s law” or “commandments” is the following. No requirements from the old covenant—including the Ten Commandments—are binding on Christians except the spiritual-moral principles, which are abundantly repeated in the Scriptures of the new covenant—the New Testament. However, keeping the Sabbath by not working is not based on any eternal, spiritual-moral principle. Nor is it mentioned in the New Testament as a Christian requirement. We must conclude that, at its heart, Sabbath regulations were ceremonial practices and not necessary for Christians to “keep holy.”"

  • Barb, if you would look at what Jen said I believe you are the one missing her point.

    Stop being an ostrich. Take your head out of the mud and really read what was said. i believe you might see that you are missing this point: “But He doesn’t stop there…”For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (action)” —-> no ones righteousness can live up to the expectations of God. We don’t have it in us. Jesus is that righteousness. Not some ignorant attempt to work our way to righteousness. It’s foolish for you to continue this conversation because you are saying nothing new. you are repeating the same thing over and over and expecting it to mean something else. once again, read what Jen said because she hit the nail on the head when she referred to your spotty use of certain verses to validate your thin argument. You are legalistic. You can call a duck by a different name, but it is still a duck.and your use of “believing in his words” is ridiculous! His words, in context here, meant that the Father sent Him. I’m pretty sure that believing that God sent Jesus requires no action. Simple faith.

    When you’re ready to stop pointing the finger and condemning people into legalistic action, maybe your witness will be more effective.Until then, you will just be a pompous, arrogant, self-important elitist cloaking yourself in a paper thin, false righteousness! but please don’t be upset, I say this in love. And, to attach a random Bible verse to validate my argument I say, “Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.” Proverbs 17:28

    When I emailed Jen, this is what her final line said, “Why must the church make expensive that which God gave his life to make free?” Wise words that we should all ponder.

  • Question: “Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?”

    Answer: The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

    In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

    “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshipping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

    Recommended Resource: The End of the Law: Mosaic Covenant in Pauline Theology by Jason Meyer.

  • True peace and wisdom comes through Jesus Christ and Him alone. For by grace are we saved through our faith, right? Elizabeth Gilbert says it well, “If we truly knew all the answers in advance as to the meaning of life and the nature of God and the destiny of our souls, our belief would not be a leap of faith and it would not be a courageous act of humanity; it would just be a prudent insurance policy.” Jesus is more than that to me. Jesus reminds me, “You judge by human standards, but I do not.” How quickly we all seem to forget the first time grace was afforded to us. Too much focus is placed on male vs. female – football vs. baking, pants vs. dresses. I think Satan thrives on this. As humans, we all fall short & yet have the ability to love and be loved. Granted the science of life still belongs to a man and woman, children are still gifts from God. They’re to be loved. Abba Father is Jennifer’s Father, too. The role of nurturing another life, or feeding and holding and loving a child first belongs to God. It also belongs to any man or woman or combination therein, who find themselves the strength and compassion required to love one another. Peace and grace. Heavy on the grace.

  • I posted this on the other blog too. I found this surfing the web.

    “The following was written for DignityUSA by Daniel A. Helminiak, the author of What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality. He holds a Ph.D. in systematic theology from Boston College and Andover Newton Theological School, and a Ph.D. in educational psychology from The University of Texas at Austin. For 28 years, he served as a priest in the Roman Catholic Church. He is a member of Dignity/Atlanta.”

    “These are the interpretations that some scholars are proposing:

    The story of Sodom in Genesis 19 is about offense against the sacred duty of hospitality. That is how Ezekiel 16:48-49 and Wisdom 9:13-14 interpret this text. The attempted male rape only heightens the atrocity of this offense.

    Leviticus 18:22 does forbid male-male sex as an “abomination.” But the word simply means an impurity or a religious taboo — like eating pork. As in the case of Catholics who used to be forbidden under pain of mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, the offense was not in the act itself but in the betrayal of one’s religion. The ancient Jews were to avoid practices common among the unclean Gentiles.

    Romans 1:27 mentions men having relations with men. But the terms used to describe them are “dishonorable” and “shameless.” These refer deliberately to social disapproval, not to ethical condemnation. Moreover, according to Paul’s usage, different from the prevalent Stoic philosophy of the day, para physin (“unnatural”) would best be translated “atypical” or “beyond the ordinary.” So it bears no reference to natural law. And it can imply no ethical condemnation because in Romans 11:24 God is said to act para physin. Paul sees gay sex as an impurity (see Rm. 1:24), just like uncircumcision or eating forbidden foods. He mentions it to make the main point of his letter, that purity requirements of the Jewish Law are not relevant in Christ Jesus. See L. William Countryman, Dirt, Greed, and Sex.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:8-10 list arsenokoitai among those who will be excluded from the Reign of God. This obscure term has been translated “homosexuals” but its exact meaning is debated. It certainly does not include women but only some kind of male sexual offenders. If it does refer to men having sex with men — which is dubious — it must be interpreted in light of the abuse and licentiousness commonly associated with male-male sex in the Roman Empire. See Robin Scroggs, The New Testament and Homosexuality.

    Finally, Genesis 1-3 shows Adam and Eve created for mutual companionship and procreation. These accounts use the most standard of human relationships to teach a religious lesson. The point is the love and wisdom of God, who made all things good and wills us no evil. Nothing suggests the biblical authors intended a lesson on sexual orientation.

    How could someone do what (the Church says) is wrong and not be living in sin?
    As the Catholic Church understands it, wrong and sin are not the same thing. Wrong is harm, disorder, destruction; it is in the objective or external world. Sin is self-distancing from God; it is in the heart. Sin is more a general attitude than any particular action. We sin when we deliberately do what we believe is wrong. Then in our hearts we opt for evil. Then we move away from goodness and from God, who is good.
    It may well be that what you do is not wrong at all. But if you think it is and you do it anyway, well, you are corrupt. That’s sin! Or what you do may really be wrong. But if you don’t honestly think so and you do it, well, your heart is not really amiss. You may be uninformed, naive, or stupid, and even dangerous, but unless you have neglected properly informing yourself, you are not sinful.
    The Church teaches right and wrong but never says who is a sinner. Only God knows our hearts. Many homosexual people simply cannot believe that gay sex as such is wrong. So they do what for them is “the best they can do,” though Church teaching says that homogenital acts are wrong. Still, according to the same Church’s teaching on conscience, they do not sin in their hearts nor before God. Then they need not confess what is not sin, and they may participate in the Sacraments of the Church.”

  • Claude in SoCal

    Question: “What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?”

    Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality.

    However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).

    Recommended Resource: Coming out of Homosexuality by Bob Davies and 101 Frequently Asked Questions About Homosexuality by Mike Haley.

  • Hi Bob,

    I read your blog and saw your courageous & Holy Spirit led defense of Christ & Biblical Truth on Larry King….(done in love, Spirit, AND in truth!).

    I thank God for your faithful witness, and I implore you (& your blog readers) to watch these 2 video clips on You Tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gkNhnMu0gs, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlw-aaWWw8U) which deal very directly, & very biblically, with the exact challenges such valiant defenses of our faith face, as Christians, in such antagonistic secular settings.

    May our Lord bless you & your ministry in His Name.

    Grace & Peace,
    Mark Kielar
    CROSS TV/WORD PICTURES

  • Pastor Bob-I was with a men’s bible study over lunch today and read 2 Timothy 4:2-5 and after watching the Larry King show, well this sums it up for me. It reads: ” Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.”

    Thank you for witnessing with passion and love for Jennifer while maintaining scripture and not watering it down to conform to the ways of this world. Not only did you witness to Jennifer but a nation of people who watch Larry King got to watch and listen-this is a very good thing.

    Just as Paul encouraged Timothy, I want to thank you again and encourage you during your walk with Him. Love the sinner and hate the sin.

    Your brother in Christ,
    Randy

  • Thank you

  • Coming Out of the Closet, part I « Josiah Concept Ministries

    [...] News and Christianity Today both broke the story, and Bob Botsford wrote the definitive post on the topic, as well as joined Knapp on Larry King Live (commentary by Mariano beginning [...]

  • Thanks,

    I too met Jennifer years ago, though she did not let on to me about her struggle. I’ve enjoyed her music and I’m confident the last verse of her song has not yet been sung; I pray the chorus of her life will be that of the prodigal; repentance.

    For now as Christians I think we should continue to offer up both God’s grace and His standard for righteous life. We need to make it as attractive as possible for Jennifer and any other strugglers to repent and return to the family.

  • The argument of Jennifier Knapp’s sexuality will be proven in time as “science” has with most of the Bible. God make us perfect and when he was done, he said that it was good. He allows us to make our own choices. In about 1997 the medical research community made the news, because it had mapped the entire Human Genetic Code> The reserch firm that did it wanted to patent what they found. Their request for the patent was dropped because other medical reserch firms did not feel that they should pay royalties on what God had made. That it would become too costly for them to continue their medical research. Note that in the press coverage nothing appeared stating that a Gay gene was found. Jeffifer should read 1st.John 3:6 and then consider her “lifestyle choice”.

  • In due time the church will turn on this issue, just as some affirming denominations already have. Slavery, misogyny, racism, child abuse, polygamy…have all been justified by the Bible, by people who consider themselves good Christians! Now the Bible is used as the basis for this homophobia and bigotry. Inevitably the church turns with the cultural tide, and I can just hold comfort in that and keep fighting the good fight.

    People are born gay. Deal with it.

    And this whole “God said marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman” argument – polygamy is rampant in the Bible. Where exactly did God say that?

    Personally I would hate to go down in history as being on the wrong side of an issue, like the Christians that fought tooth and nail for their right to have slaves.

  • The statement that “people are born gay. deal with it.” has yet to be proven. Science and Medical Research are proving just the opposite. There was no gay gene found when they mapped the entire Human Genetic Code. The psychological approach to the study of human behavior based on a reaction to external stimulus may well soon prove the “lifestyle choice” that was made. We make many choices from birth to about 3 years of age. In a time frame that most of us never remember. When did we first choose to stand up, choose to take our first step, choose which hand to reach out with (our right or left hand), Choose a color, a noise, a type of music, and many other choices that were made when we could not remember when we made that choice. What was the external stimilus that made someone decide to be gay? Molestation by a family member at that age may cause us to think, later in life, that God made us that way. We don’t remember our choice. As Pastor Bob said on the Larry King show, the scriptures say “go and sin no more”. Lets not blame God for our choice. Jennifier Knapp should get in prayer and we should show her God’s love and mercy.

  • Saying that it hasn’t been proven is like saying “guilty until proven innocent” instead of the reverse (which would be a more humble, grace filled, Christ-like position, wouldn’t it?), and the church should not be acting on the assumption that it is a choice since they don’t know for sure, and it discredits the experiences and feelings of an entire group of people.

    Not every gay person was molested as a child, and if that was causation then wouldn’t all, or even most, children who are molested turn out to be gay? Molestation rates are sadly staggering and if it did cause “gayness” there would be a lot more gay people than there are.

    Even “pastor” Bob says above, “In twenty-five years of ministry I have encountered countless examples of homosexuals describing to me the deep seated urges and subconscious desires they have battled with their whole lives.”

    Maybe he (and all Christians) should consider that those deep seated urges and subconscious desires are biological.

    Oh, and Jennifer Knapp probably is in prayer. Because she is a Christian. Just like you.

  • All of this preaching to the choir and “high-fiving each other on our bigotry” makes me really glad I left the faith. As Ghandi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    I left Christianity behind because I could not align myself with a group that went so against my morals and convictions; a group that talks one way but walks another. “Love the sinner; hate the sin,” you all say, yet here you are participating in the public shaming of another human being, another Christian human being. Nice. Really nice. But par for the course.

  • “The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice.”

    Wow. I’m flabbergasted. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt: perhaps you are separating the feelings from the actions. I can assure you that no homosexual I know sinned his or her way into homosexual attraction any more than you had any conscious deliberate part in the development of your heterosexuality. Granted, how the attractions that we experience as we mature may be up for debate and whether or not we should act on certain feelings is still open for discussion.

    However, if you’re suggesting that homosexuals choose these attractions as they move into adolescence and if this view is representative of Christian orthodoxy then the church has much further to go than I thought. No wonder so many homosexuals feel alienated from the church.

  • …oops…”how the attractions that we experience DEVELOP..” but I think you get the point.

  • In this blog, pastor Bob spoke the truth with love. Then, a few homosexuals asked good questions with honesty and respect. I’d like to respond to them, as well as ANY person (disciple or not) who has decided to stop, turn around, and head on the way to recovery. . . .

    Ever since I learned of my Dad’s homosexuality and pedophile tendencies, I’ve been studying to understand. It is NOT easy for a homosexual to change overnight. GOD HEALS in many ways and enjoys doing His work in the church, his hospital for sinners. With God, it is possible! Here are a few tools for EVERYONE to use on their road to recovery from ALL sins (homosexuality or others):

    - Course, “SELF-CONFRONTATION” by the Biblical Counseling Foundation. This course should be a requirement for ALL who enter the doors of our churches, nonbeliever or disciple (babe-in-Christ or mature). Helps us see the “man in the mirror” through the Scriptures. Course offered at Horizon Christian Fellowship, 5331 Mt. Alifan, San Diego. Tel: 858-277-4991 and other sites nationwide.

    - Book, “PARABLES FOR PERSONAL GROWTH: TALES FOR YOUR HEALING JOURNEY” by Melinda Reinicke. This book helps us SEE our wounds, but also shows us how to MEND that brokenness. It’s a guide for self-defeating behavior, codependency, boundaries, depression, self-concept, loss of childhood, recover from childhood abuse, dysfunctional family interactions, fears, anxiety, unhealthy group victimization, forgiving and LETTING GO, loss and grief.

    If the above doesn’t apply to you, then it may apply to some you love, or help you LOVE a stranger. Check it out!

    Written with love from Christ,
    Yvonne

  • I have struggled with same sex attraction for almost as long as I can remember. I’ve taken cues to live in condemnation from the various people throughout my life who spoke against it in my presence, although apparently not knowing my struggle.

    So I hid my attraction for fear of being found out. I had several same sex encounters early in life that I endeavored to forget and I hoped with all my heart that this desire would be taken away from me so that I could live in peace with myself and my fellow man. I was not a Christian at the time and had little to no awareness of what God thought about my attraction.

    I was miraculously saved and filled with the Holy Ghost about 20 years ago, and felt I was free from same sex attraction, but it came back to haunt me. Much of my prayer life was devoted to remaining pure and trying not to dwell on my sexual preference, but I could not escape it.

    Personally, I have found very little support in the Christian church; on the contrary, most of those I considered brothers, sisters, and friends in Christ were publicly declaring their love for the homosexual, while privately spewing hate. This hatred poured from them freely in my presence, undoubtedly because they had no awareness of my personal struggle.

    I have sought to trust fellow Christians with my struggle, only to have my confession shared with others and my trust violated. Additionally, I have had some Christians simply distance themselves from me after I trusted them to hear my confession of struggle.

    I’ve been extremely discrete about sharing this with others in the faith, all the while hoping that there would be some sense of acceptance of me as a Christian who struggles with same sex attraction.

    I am mow nearly 60 years old, and I’m tired of the struggle and tired of trying to find acceptance in the church. It’s between God and me; I trust Him in this, that he’ll bring me home safely.

    I am no longer going to hide my struggle, nor will I hide my faith in God for fear of bringing disrepute to Jesus and His gospel. The Lord is bigger than this thing and all the arguments of men. I will seek deliverance from this condemnation that comes from friends, and seek the Lord Himself. I will be a friend to those with similar histories, and to the best of my ability, provide them solace, and point them to their God.

    I will continue to seek and develop fellowship with Christians and non-Christians that don’t live with this struggle, but will no longer allow them to condemn me for my same sex attraction.

    I pray for the strength of the Lord to pray for those who hate me or condemn me.

    Trust Jennifer to God

  • I have a few friends that live this life style. I am a heterosexual christan and have never battled with this type of physical attraction. I know the flesh is so weak and it is so easy for humans to sin. I pray for my brothers and sisters in the gay community. I feel heartache for their situation. I really apprecaited your honest blog. It was very clear and honest. I am also sure it was not so easy for you to post knowing the many reactions from the gay community. All we can do is pray for them. Living a celebate life style to them must be like a torturous pain but we also must remember Christ died for our sins. He suffered unsermountable torture even prior to hanging on that cross for each one of us. I myself live with severe physical chronic pain. It is but a droplet in a bucket compared to the pain Christ endured. I think of my salvation and our short time on earth compared to our eternal salvation. I praise God for each day of life here and for the day I go to my Masters hands to live out eternity without pain.The alterative is pain and suffering in darkness for eternity. Who would want that I cannot understand.

  • i just want to say that i watched the larry king live episode, and i thought you did a great job. A few of my christian friends are struggling with homosexuality, and it is so hard to keep your cool and to confess the truth because you feel like you are being the “judgmental hateful” Christian when in all reality you are really trying to help because your heart literally aches for that person. Its so hard to fight with what society says is right and what God says is right… you feel like the beaten minority, and that your never going to get that point across. But with what I heard you say it gave me the confidence to trust in God and that eventually His Love and Truth will prevail. I have to just leave it in His hands

  • Charles Ogundimu

    Jennifer clings to the idea that people mis-interprete the bible. How do you mis-interprete “a man should not lie with another man”…and vice-versa. The bible puts it in plainly in no uncomplicated terms. Every word that came out of her mouth during the LK interview was pure justification,

  • Thank you so very much for doing what many Pastors fail to do today, speak the truth of God’s word. So many times we see spiritual leaders try to remain politically correct…let’s all strive to remain Biblically Correct! Thank you for all that you do. Your ministry has been a tremendous blessing to me in my walk with Jesus.
    Love,
    A faithful listener

  • Randy Robbins

    Well said Bob, a true, hateful bigot hiding behind words of love.

  • Thank you for you loving words. Everything you said my wife and I have felt for almost 2 years. Our 37-year old daughter is divorced and has three beautiful children. She informed us almost 2 years ago that she was a lesbian and in the summer of “08″ became “family” with her new partner. Because we do not and can not accept her chosen life style, she says that we are not the loving Christian parents we claim to be. Six months ago, she told us that if we could not accept her new family, she no longer wanted to be a part of ours and asked us to exclude her in any future communications.

    In a phone converstion with her, she told me that the Old Testament laws that prohibit same sex relationships are no longer applicable because of Jesus and His unconditional love.
    By this, it is as if she believes that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are totally different. I have always believed that God is the only constant in our lives and that He will never change.

    We will continue to pray for her and for our three wonderful grandchildren. Thank you Paster Bob for your loving words.

  • yvonne, you realize that the book you are suggesting was written back in 1993? Since then the APA has come out saying sexual orientation change efforts don’t work. That therapist need to stop the practice.

    Insufficient Evidence that Sexual Orientation Change Efforts Work, Says APA

    Practitioners should avoid telling clients they can change from gay to straight

    TORONTO—The American Psychological Association adopted a resolution Wednesday stating that mental health professionals should avoid telling clients that they can change their sexual orientation through therapy or other treatments.

    The “Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts” also advises that parents, guardians, young people and their families avoid sexual orientation treatments that portray homosexuality as a mental illness or developmental disorder and instead seek psychotherapy, social support and educational services “that provide accurate information on sexual orientation and sexuality, increase family and school support and reduce rejection of sexual minority youth.”
    The approval, by APA’s governing Council of Representatives, came at APA’s annual convention, during which a task force presented a report that in part examined the efficacy of so-called “reparative therapy,” or sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE).
    “Contrary to claims of sexual orientation change advocates and practitioners, there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation,” said Judith M. Glassgold, PsyD, chair of the task force. “Scientifically rigorous older studies in this area found that sexual orientation was unlikely to change due to efforts designed for this purpose. Contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates, recent research studies do not provide evidence of sexual orientation change as the research methods are inadequate to determine the effectiveness of these interventions.” Glassgold added: “At most, certain studies suggested that some individuals learned how to ignore or not act on their homosexual attractions. Yet, these studies did not indicate for whom this was possible, how long it lasted or its long-term mental health effects. Also, this result was much less likely to be true for people who started out only attracted to people of the same sex.”

    Based on this review, the task force recommended that mental health professionals avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts when providing assistance to people distressed about their own or others’ sexual orientation.
    Read the task force report

    • Report of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation
    APA appointed the six-member Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation in 2007 to review and update APA’s 1997 resolution, “Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation,” and to generate a report. APA was concerned about ongoing efforts to promote the notion that sexual orientation can be changed through psychotherapy or approaches that mischaracterize homosexuality as a mental disorder.

    The task force examined the peer-reviewed journal articles in English from 1960 to 2007, which included 83 studies. Most of the studies were conducted before 1978, and only a few had been conducted in the last 10 years. The group also reviewed the recent literature on the psychology of sexual orientation.

    “Unfortunately, much of the research in the area of sexual orientation change contains serious design flaws,” Glassgold said. “Few studies could be considered methodologically sound and none systematically evaluated potential harms.”

    As to the issue of possible harm, the task force was unable to reach any conclusion regarding the efficacy or safety of any of the recent studies of SOCE: “There are no methodologically sound studies of recent SOCE that would enable the task force to make a definitive statement about whether or not recent SOCE is safe or harmful and for whom,” according to the report.

    “Without such information, psychologists cannot predict the impact of these treatments and need to be very cautious, given that some qualitative research suggests the potential for harm,” Glassgold said. “Practitioners can assist clients through therapies that do not attempt to change sexual orientation, but rather involve acceptance, support and identity exploration and development without imposing a specific identity outcome.”

    As part of its report, the task force identified that some clients seeking to change their sexual orientation may be in distress because of a conflict between their sexual orientation and religious beliefs. The task force recommended that licensed mental health care providers treating such clients help them “explore possible life paths that address the reality of their sexual orientation, reduce the stigma associated with homosexuality, respect the client’s religious beliefs, and consider possibilities for a religiously and spiritually meaningful and rewarding life.”

    “In other words,” Glassgold said, “we recommend that psychologists be completely honest about the likelihood of sexual orientation change, and that they help clients explore their assumptions and goals with respect to both religion and sexuality.”

    Members of the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation:
    Judith M. Glassgold, PsyD, Rutgers University – Chair
    Lee Beckstead, PhD
    Jack Drescher, MD
    Beverly Greene, PhD, St. John’s University
    Robin Lin Miller, PhD, Michigan State University
    Roger L. Worthington, PhD, University of Missouri

  • Great Great way of telling the truth in love. That is a Pastor’s Heart, that most Christians do not understand. I agree with you Pastor, 100%, you did only thing God commands give the truth in love and stand by His word. Because if you had went along with the sin, you would be shaming God but you stood up for His word and His love for Jennifer. No matter what Christians say, it is the enemy’s job to shame God’s word. The secular world may never understand why we have to stand up for God’s Truth, but we know no matter how they persercute us with their words and hate, our reward is not with man but with God in heaven. You spoke the truth in love, so you can wipe the dust from your feet and keep spreading the Most Powerful News There is God’s Word. No matter what rules or changes this world try to implement God’s Word cannot be changed and it will never fail. I love your boldness to stand up for what you know is right, no matter who speaks out against it. God bless you Pastor, God feels our pain, His only begotten was killed because of the Gospel. Where we fail as Humans, God will move forth through out this earth, showing forth His Glory on every creation, when time comes, every knew shall bow and Proclaim that He is Lord. Amen.

  • Very well said, Pastor Bob. I appreciated your interview on Larry King Live. I think it’s important for people to acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin and that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. They are incompatible with a relationship with God. I have gone through periods of my life where I have allowed various sins to dominate my life, and I can say with absolute certainty God was not by my side during those times. I can also say that I knew better and chose to continue in it until the point at which I repented. There is a huge cultural stigma when it comes to homosexuality. Today, adultery and especially fornication are largely the American “cultural” norm. But homosexuality hasn’t quite gotten there yet. A lot of Christians couple their cultural taboo view of homosexuality with their Biblical knowledge that it is a sin, which results in them treating homosexual sin as much worse than other sexual sins we have become largely been desensitized to. I think it is disappointing that all of these sins are becoming culturally embraced and accepted; however, I do think that this has allowed Christians to think for themselves on these issues without muddling it with culture shock. Jesus calls us to take up our cross and follow Him. We cannot do that if we are holding on to sins of our past life. We may trip and stumble along the way, but as long as our focus remains on Jesus and we are continually purging our old self, He will walk beside us. I pray for Jennifer Knapp and all people struggling with habitual sin to repent and to allow Jesus to help them conquer their old self and follow Him, just like I have.

  • There is no proof that people are born gay, most research points strongly to nurture instead of nature, but even if people were born gay it would not stop it from being a sin. One of the foundational principles of Christianity is we are born sinners. We are from the get go screwed up morally, sexually, and we are prone to selfish idolatrous behavior, furthermore our every motive is tainted by sin. Christianity admits we are born bad, but offers the hope of change. You are not destined to remain as you were born, and you are not designed to remain as you currently are. The “born gay” argument completely falls apart under scrutiny only those who do not believe in personal responsibility can continue to blame their genetics for their actions.

    I have heard Jennifer’s new album. If being gay is such a normal and good thing ordained by God why has she moved away from singing praises to God? She now seems to sing only to justify herself. If she had discovered such a great breakthrough in her walk with Jesus by finding His approval for her lifestyle why not sing to Him about it? Why is she in word and action acting like one in rebellion to God rather than like a believer enjoying sanctification? I think the answer is pretty obvious to all who are not self-deceived.

  • Excellent article about what the Bible says and doesn’t say about homosexuality:

    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

    Please read it. (Everyone.)

    No one answered my question above about why polygamy is rampant in the Bible if God has said marriage is between one man and one woman. This article covers that.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Beth

    May 5th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
    Excellent article about what the Bible says and doesn’t say about homosexuality:

    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

    Please read it. (Everyone.)

    No one answered my question above about why polygamy is rampant in the Bible if God has said marriage is between one man and one woman. This article covers that.

    Question: “Why did God allow polygamy / bigamy in the Bible?”

    Answer: The question of polygamy is an interesting one in that most people today view polygamy as immoral while the Bible nowhere explicitly condemns it. The first instance of polygamy/bigamy in the Bible was that of Lamech in Genesis 4:19: “Lamech married two women.” Several prominent men in the Old Testament were polygamists. Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, and others all had multiple wives. In 2 Samuel 12:8, God, speaking through the prophet Nathan, said that if David’s wives and concubines were not enough, He would have given David even more. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), according to 1 Kings 11:3. What are we to do with these instances of polygamy in the Old Testament? There are three questions that need to be answered: 1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? 2) How does God view polygamy today? 3) Why did it change?

    1) Why did God allow polygamy in the Old Testament? The Bible does not specifically say why God allowed polygamy. As we speculate about God’s silence, there are a few key factors to consider. First, there have always been more women in the world than men. Current statistics show that approximately 50.5 percent of the world population are women, with men being 49.5 percent. Assuming the same percentages in ancient times, and multiplied by millions of people, there would be tens of thousands more women than men. Second, warfare in ancient times was especially brutal, with an incredibly high rate of fatality. This would have resulted in an even greater percentage of women to men. Third, due to patriarchal societies, it was nearly impossible for an unmarried woman to provide for herself. Women were often uneducated and untrained. Women relied on their fathers, brothers, and husbands for provision and protection. Unmarried women were often subjected to prostitution and slavery. The significant difference between the number of women and men would have left many, many women in an undesirable situation.

    So, it seems that God may have allowed polygamy to protect and provide for the women who could not find a husband otherwise. A man would take multiple wives and serve as the provider and protector of all of them. While definitely not ideal, living in a polygamist household was far better than the alternatives: prostitution, slavery, or starvation. In addition to the protection/provision factor, polygamy enabled a much faster expansion of humanity, fulfilling God’s command to “be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth” (Genesis 9:7). Men are capable of impregnating multiple women in the same time period, causing humanity to grow much faster than if each man was only producing one child each year.

    2) How does God view polygamy today? Even while allowing polygamy, the Bible presents monogamy as the plan which conforms most closely to God’s ideal for marriage. The Bible says that God’s original intention was for one man to be married to only one woman: “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [not wives], and they will become one flesh [not fleshes]” (Genesis 2:24). While Genesis 2:24 is describing what marriage is, rather than how many people are involved, the consistent use of the singular should be noted. In Deuteronomy 17:14-20, God says that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives (or horses or gold). While this cannot be interpreted as a command that the kings must be monogamous, it can be understood as declaring that having multiple wives causes problems. This can be clearly seen in the life of Solomon (1 Kings 11:3-4).

    In the New Testament, 1 Timothy 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6 give “the husband of one wife” in a list of qualifications for spiritual leadership. There is some debate as to what specifically this qualification means. The phrase could literally be translated “a one-woman man.” Whether or not this phrase is referring exclusively to polygamy, in no sense can a polygamist be considered a “one-woman man.” While these qualifications are specifically for positions of spiritual leadership, they should apply equally to all Christians. Should not all Christians be “above reproach…temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money” (1 Timothy 3:2-4)? If we are called to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and if these standards are holy for elders and deacons, then they are holy for all.

    Ephesians 5:22-33 speaks of the relationship between husbands and wives. When referring to a husband (singular), it always also refers to a wife (singular). “For the husband is the head of the wife [singular] … He who loves his wife [singular] loves himself. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [singular], and the two will become one flesh….Each one of you also must love his wife [singular] as he loves himself, and the wife [singular] must respect her husband [singular].” While a somewhat parallel passage, Colossians 3:18-19, refers to husbands and wives in the plural, it is clear that Paul is addressing all the husbands and wives among the Colossian believers, not stating that a husband might have multiple wives. In contrast, Ephesians 5:22-33 is specifically describing the marital relationship. If polygamy were allowable, the entire illustration of Christ’s relationship with His body (the church) and the husband-wife relationship falls apart.

    3) Why did it change? It is not so much God’s disallowing something He previously allowed as it is God’s restoring marriage to His original plan. Even going back to Adam and Eve, polygamy was not God’s original intent. God seems to have allowed polygamy to solve a problem, but it is not the ideal. In most modern societies, there is absolutely no need for polygamy. In most cultures today, women are able to provide for and protect themselves—removing the only “positive” aspect of polygamy. Further, most modern nations outlaw polygamy. According to Romans 13:1-7, we are to obey the laws the government establishes. The only instance in which disobeying the law is permitted by Scripture is if the law contradicts God’s commands (Acts 5:29). Since God only allows for polygamy, and does not command it, a law prohibiting polygamy should be upheld.

    Are there some instances in which the allowance for polygamy would still apply today? Perhaps, but it is unfathomable that there would be no other possible solution. Due to the “one flesh” aspect of marriage, the need for oneness and harmony in marriage, and the lack of any real need for polygamy, it is our firm belief that polygamy does not honor God and is not His design for marriage.

    Recommended Resource: Bible Answers for Almost all Your Questions by Elmer Towns.

  • That’s a lot of speculation about God’s intent and/or silence. I don’t really buy it, and think that polygamy was simply culturally accepted back then, just as homosexuality is gaining in cultural acceptance now, and for which I am glad.

  • It will be a great day when not only 2 men/women can marry but 3 or more men /women can marry too! Actually, when we can get to polygamy for homosexuals then we know that we have arrived…and throw in a few kids too…that’ll bring a smile to Gods heart. No rules for any one about anything right? As long as your happy thats all that matters, after all God needs to update his book to catch up with us progressive, tolerant humans! Come on God, catch up with the times!

  • Slippery slope arguments…old, boring, and without merit. Let’s throw some bestiality in there too just for good measure, because surely if gays can get married people will want to marry animals too.

    And we’re not talking about no rules for anyone. We’re talking about you following your rules and allowing others to do the same, within a basic lawful framework that is not based on the morality of one religious group. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion.

  • Beth,

    That was actually funny..following “your rules” apart from morality?
    And then you think beastiality is a slippery slope argument?

    Get off the pipe!

  • Saw you on Larry King and just wanted to encourage you for speaking out the Truth in love. Your blog is the truth of God but still displays grace and love as Jesus does. This generation desperately needs the TRUTH of Jesus Christ and to turn from compromise that comes at every corner. I believe that people are more confused and seeking for truth now than ever before. We must rise up and bring the truth of Jesus Christ.

  • I don’t smoke. Bestiality is a slippery slope argument I heard ad nauseum in church and (Christian) school throughout my life. You just assume that you are talking to some uneducated heathen, but I am someone who was raised in the faith and then made a conscious choice to not be a Christian any more, mainly because of people like you and others here who are so hateful to other human beings.

    And my rules are really far more moral and Christlike than your own, since first and foremost in my rules are love and treating others as I would want to be treated.

  • Hebrews 10:26-29

    If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy (common) thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

  • Then tell me Beth since you have been so enlightened since leaving Christianity, explain “sexual orientation”.
    Now remember we are talking about a behavior, not skin color, eye color,
    race, gender…those are traits we are born with.
    There are many orientations…so where do you draw the line?
    Explain please… and stop with the whiny, “hater” talk..no ones hates on this blog, not one..passionate debate is OK. Its good. I figured you don’t smoke..its a figure of speech, when someone is talking nonsense.
    And if you cant stand christianity, why are you even on this blog?? After all, its so filled with hate, right?

  • If sexual orientation is a choice, when did you choose to be attracted to men? I’m going to assume that you can’t pinpoint a particular day or even year that you thought, “Hmm, I’m going to be attracted to boys.” You simply were. Why then, do heterosexual people assume that it is any different for gays and lesbians? If you actually know any gay people and have talked to them, you will find that very often they know from a very young age that they are gay, even if it takes years for them to accept it themselves and live an authentic life.

    We are not just talking about a behavior, because sexual orientation is about far more than the act of sex itself. It is about a person’s identity, and the gender that one is attracted to, fantasizes about, and desires to have a relationship with.

    As to why I am here, I watched the Larry King interview and wanted to read the blog. As a reader why shouldn’t I be allowed to make comments just like everyone else? Just because I have a different viewpoint? And there is hate in this blog and in the comments. You just can’t see it because you are complicit in it.

    I never said I can’t stand Christianity. I can’t stand the hypocrisy. I can’t stand that the church of today is so far removed from what Christ meant for it to be. I can’t stand that people who say they believe in Christ, and the two greatest commandments, think it is okay to be here telling a fellow believer that she is going to hell.

    Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

  • As I stated elsewhere on a response, we tend to become the decisions we make. The more we choose something, the more we become that something. We are all in the process of solidifying our identities by the decisions we make. With each decision, we pick up momentum in the direction of that decision. I don’t think that anyone is insinuating that people wake up and simply just choose to be gay one day. It’s a process (for lack of a better word… I’m not at all supporting Ted’s use of the word by using it here), and we all have choices, even in the face of a God who omni potently chooses not to instantaneously deliver us from all evil. (I’m afraid that for some, that may not come this side of heaven.) The choice comes down to whom will we serve – our sin nature, or God?

  • Claude in SoCal

    Question: “Do human beings truly have a free will?”

    Answer: If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

    However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

    This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

    In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

    Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

    But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

    Recommended Resource: Chosen But Free by Norm Geisler and The Potter’s Freedom by James White.

    Question: “Is God sovereign or do we have a free will?”

    Answer: When we talk about free will, we are usually concerned with the matter of salvation. Few are interested in whether we have the free will to choose salad or steak for our dinner tonight. Rather, we are troubled over who exactly is in control of our eternal destiny.

    Any discussion of man’s free will must begin with an understanding of his nature because man’s will is bound by that nature. A prisoner has the freedom to pace up and down in his cell, but he is constrained by the walls of that cell and can go no further, no matter how much his will might desire it. So it is with man. Because of sin, man is imprisoned within a cell of corruption and wickedness which permeates to the very core of our being. Every part of man is in bondage to sin – our bodies, our minds, and our wills. Jeremiah 17:9 tells us the state of man’s heart: it is “deceitful and desperately wicked.” In our natural, unregenerate state, we are carnally minded, not spiritually minded. “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7). These verses tell us that before we are saved, we are at enmity (war) with God, we do not submit to God and His law, neither can we. The Bible is clear that, in his natural state, man is incapable of choosing that which is good and holy. In other words, he does not have the “free will” to choose God because his will is not free. It is constrained by his nature, just as the prisoner is constrained by his cell.

    How then can anyone be saved? Ephesians 2:1 describes the process. We who are “dead in our trespasses and sins” have been “made alive” through Christ. A dead man cannot make himself alive because he lacks the necessary power to do so. Lazarus lay in his tomb four days unable to do a thing to resurrect himself. Christ came along and commanded him to come to life (John 11). So it is with us. We are spiritually dead, unable to rise. But “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). He calls us out of our spiritual graves and gives us a completely new nature, one undefiled by sin as the old nature was (2 Corinthians 5:17). God saw the desperate and helpless state of our souls, and in His great love and mercy, He sovereignly chose to send His Son to the cross to redeem us. By His grace we are saved through the gift of faith which He gives us so that we can believe in Jesus. His grace is a free gift, our faith is a free gift, and our salvation is a free gift given to those whom God has chosen “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). Why did He chose to do it this way? Because it was “according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:5-6). It’s important to understand that the plan of salvation is designed to glorify God, not man. Our response is to praise Him for the “glory of His grace.” If we chose our own salvation, who would get the glory? We would, and God has made it clear that He will not give the glory due to Him to anyone else (Isaiah 48:11).

    The question naturally arises, how do we know who has been saved “from the foundation of the world”? We don’t. That is why we take the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth, telling all to repent and receive God’s gift of grace. Second Corinthians 5:20 tells us we are to be pleading with others to be reconciled to God before it is too late. We cannot know who God will choose to release from their prison cells of sin. We leave that choice to Him and present the Gospel to all. The ones who come to Jesus He “will in no way cast out” (John 6:37).

    Recommended Resource: Evangelism & the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer.

  • The true test of love and tolerance is to see the response of the “love filled, non hating, tolerant” people who actually are the most vile and perverted in their words and deeds towards homosexuals that have left that lifestyle. It is disgusting to see how they are treated when they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. But it proves where the real hatred lies.
    Google Michael Glatze, the homosexuals HATE him.

    I didn’t make up the rules, if left to me, my sinful nature really wouldn’t care. I wonder how we should interpret these scriptures:
    Romans 1: 21 “Yes, they knew God,but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think uo foolish ideas of what God was like. ”

    v 24: “So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.
    As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each others bodies. 25: Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe LIES.
    So they worshipped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praise
    forever. Amen”

    V26: That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires.. Even the women turned against the NATURAL way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27: And the men, instead of having NORMAL sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other and as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

    v28: When they refused to acknowlegde God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that never should be done.

    v32: They are fully aware of Gods death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do the same.
    Ok , so I wonder what God is trying to say here? Is God a hater, too?

  • It’s time to excommunicate Jennifer Knapp (title thx to C.Rosebrough) « Give Us The Truth

    [...] the transcript from Friday’s roundtable discussion here. Watch as Pastor Bob Botsford seeks to be loving and gentle, and yet still gets pelted with the pejorative term [...]

  • The resource I posted before talks about that passage in Romans and its various interpretations.

    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

    And here is another, that gives both the conservative and more liberal interpretations:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc3.htm

    I just broke out my Bible – it’s been a long time – and all I see from the passage and surrounding verses is that Paul is condemning the Pagan sexual rituals and idol worship that he had witnessed. It is interesting to note that it is implied that God caused them to abandon their natural inclinations. That seems to go against the idea of free will; that God could cause us to sin.

    Most importantly, though, is to take note of the next verses in Romans 2:1-3: “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?”

  • Homosexuality and the Bible
    by The Rev. Dr. Walter Wink

    Sexual issues are tearing our churches apart today as never before. The issue of homosexuality threatens to fracture whole denominations, as the issue of slavery did a hundred and fifty years ago. We naturally turn to the Bible for guidance, and find ourselves mired in interpretative quicksand. Is the Bible able to speak to our confusion on this issue?

    The debate over homosexuality is a remarkable opportunity, because it raises in an especially acute way how we interpret the Bible, not in this case only, but in numerous others as well. The real issue here, then, is not simply homosexuality, but how Scripture informs our lives today.

    Some passages that have been advanced as pertinent to the issue of homosexuality are, in fact, irrelevant. One is the attempted gang rape in Sodom (Gen. 19:1-29). That was a case of ostensibly heterosexual males intent on humiliating strangers by treating them “like women,” thus demasculinizing them. (This is also the case in a similar account in Judges 19-21.) Their brutal behavior has nothing to do with the problem of whether genuine love expressed between consenting adults of the same sex is legitimate or not. Likewise Deut. 23:17-18 must be pruned from the list, since it most likely refers to a heterosexual prostitute involved in Canaanite fertility rites that have infiltrated Jewish worship; the King James Version inaccurately labeled him a “sodomite.”

    Several other texts are ambiguous. It is not clear whether 1 Cor. 6:9 and 1 Tim. 1:10 refer to the “passive” and “active” partners in homosexual relationships, or to homosexual and heterosexual male prostitutes. In short, it is unclear whether the issue is homosexuality alone, or promiscuity and “sex-for-hire.”

    Unequivocal Condemnations

    Putting these texts to the side, we are left with three references, all of which unequivocally condemn homosexual behavior. Lev. 18:22 states the principle: “You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination” (NRSV). The second (Lev. 20:13) adds the penalty: “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.”

    Such an act was regarded as an “abomination” for several reasons. The Hebrew prescientific understanding was that male semen contained the whole of nascent life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the woman provided only the incubating space. Hence the spilling of semen for any nonprocreative purpose–in coitus interruptus (Gen. 38:1-11), male homosexual acts, or male masturbation–was considered tantamount to abortion or murder. (Female homosexual acts were consequently not so seriously regarded, and are not mentioned at all in the Old Testament (but see Rom. 1:26). One can appreciate how a tribe struggling to populate a country in which its people were outnumbered would value procreation highly, but such values are rendered questionable in a world facing uncontrolled overpopulation.

    In addition, when a man acted like a woman sexually, male dignity was compromised. It was a degradation, not only in regard to himself, but for every other male. The patriarchalism of Hebrew culture shows its hand in the very formulation of the commandment, since no similar stricture was formulated to forbid homosexual acts between females. And the repugnance felt toward homosexuality was not just that it was deemed unnatural but also that it was considered unJewish, representing yet one more incursion of pagan civilization into Jewish life. On top of that is the more universal repugnance heterosexuals tend to feel for acts and orientations foreign to them. (Left-handedness has evoked something of the same response in many cultures.)

    Whatever the rationale for their formulation, however, the texts leave no room for maneuvering. Persons committing homosexual acts are to be executed. This is the unambiguous command of Scripture. The meaning is clear: anyone who wishes to base his or her beliefs on the witness of the Old Testament must be completely consistent and demand the death penalty for everyone who performs homosexual acts. (That may seem extreme, but there actually are some Christians urging this very thing today.) It is unlikely that any American court will ever again condemn a homosexual to death, even though Scripture clearly commands it.

    Old Testament texts have to be weighed against the New. Consequently, Paul’s unambiguous condemnation of homosexual behavior in Rom. 1:26-27 must be the centerpiece of any discussion.

    For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

    No doubt Paul was unaware of the distinction between sexual orientation, over which one has apparently very little choice, and sexual behavior, over which one does. He seemed to assume that those whom he condemned were heterosexuals who were acting contrary to nature, “leaving,” “giving up,” or “exchanging” their regular sexual orientation for that which was foreign to them. Paul knew nothing of the modern psychosexual understanding of homosexuals as persons whose orientation is fixed early in life, or perhaps even genetically in some cases. For such persons, having heterosexual relations would be acting contrary to nature, “leaving,” “giving up” or “exchanging” their natural sexual orientation for one that was unnatural to them.

    In other words, Paul really thought that those whose behavior he condemned were “straight,” and that they were behaving in ways that were unnatural to them. Paul believed that everyone was straight. He had no concept of homosexual orientation. The idea was not available in his world. There are people that are genuinely homosexual by nature (whether genetically or as a result of upbringing no one really knows, and it is irrelevant). For such a person it would be acting contrary to nature to have sexual relations with a person of the opposite sex.

    Likewise, the relationships Paul describes are heavy with lust; they are not relationships between consenting adults who are committed to each other as faithfully and with as much integrity as any heterosexual couple. That was something Paul simply could not envision. Some people assume today that venereal disease and AIDS are divine punishment for homosexual behavior; we know it as a risk involved in promiscuity of every stripe, homosexual and heterosexual. In fact, the vast majority of people with AIDS the world around are heterosexuals. We can scarcely label AIDS a divine punishment, since nonpromiscuous lesbians are at almost no risk.

    And Paul believes that homosexual behavior is contrary to nature, whereas we have learned that it is manifested by a wide variety of species, especially (but not solely) under the pressure of overpopulation. It would appear then to be a quite natural mechanism for preserving species. We cannot, of course, decide human ethical conduct solely on the basis of animal behavior or the human sciences, but Paul here is arguing from nature, as he himself says, and new knowledge of what is “natural” is therefore relevant to the case.

    Hebrew Sexual Mores

    Nevertheless, the Bible quite clearly takes a negative view of homosexual activity, in those few instances where it is mentioned at all. But this conclusion does not solve the problem of how we are to interpret Scripture today. For there are other sexual attitudes, practices and restrictions which are normative in Scripture but which we no longer accept as normative:

    1. Old Testament law strictly forbids sexual intercourse during the seven days of the menstrual period (Lev. 18:19; 15:19-24), and anyone in violation was to be “extirpated” or “cut off from their people” (kareth, Lev. 18:29, a term referring to execution by stoning, burning, strangling, or to flogging or expulsion; Lev. 15:24 omits this penalty). Today many people on occasion have intercourse during menstruation and think nothing of it. Should they be “extirpated”? The Bible says they should.

    2. The punishment for adultery was death by stoning for both the man and the woman (Deut. 22:22), but here adultery is defined by the marital status of the woman. In the Old Testament, a man could not commit adultery against his own wife; he could only commit adultery against another man by sexually using the other’s wife. And a bride who is found not to be a virgin is to be stoned to death (Deut. 22:13-21), but male virginity at marriage is never even mentioned. It is one of the curiosities of the current debate on sexuality that adultery, which creates far more social havoc, is considered less “sinful” than homosexual activity. Perhaps this is because there are far more adulterers in our churches. Yet no one, to my knowledge, is calling for their stoning, despite the clear command of Scripture. And we ordain adulterers.

    3. Nudity, the characteristic of paradise, was regarded in Judaism as reprehensible (2 Sam. 6:20; 10:4; Isa. 20:2-4; 47:3). When one of Noah’s sons beheld his father naked, he was cursed (Gen. 9:20-27). To a great extent this nudity taboo probably even inhibited the sexual intimacy of husbands and wives (this is still true of a surprising number of people reared in the Judeo-Christian tradition). We may not be prepared for nude beaches, but are we prepared to regard nudity in the locker room or at the old swimming hole or in the privacy of one’s home as an accursed sin? The Bible does.

    4. Polygamy (many wives) and concubinage (a woman living with a man to whom she is not married) were regularly practiced in the Old Testament. Neither is ever condemned by the New Testament (with the questionable exceptions of 1 Tim. 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6). Jesus’ teaching about marital union in Mark 10:6-8 is no exception, since he quotes Gen. 2:24 as his authority (the man and the woman will become “one flesh”), and this text was never understood in Israel as excluding polygamy. A man could become “one flesh” with more than one woman, through the act of sexual intercourse. We know from Jewish sources that polygamy continued to be practiced within Judaism for centuries following the New Testament period. So if the Bible allowed polygamy and concubinage, why don’t we?

    5. A form of polygamy was the levirate marriage. When a married man in Israel died childless, his widow was to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bore him a male heir. Jesus mentions this custom without criticism (Mark 12:18-27 par.). I am not aware of any Christians who still obey this unambiguous commandment of Scripture. Why is this law ignored, and the one against homosexual behavior preserved?

    6. The Old Testament nowhere explicitly prohibits sexual relations between unmarried consenting heterosexual adults, as long as the woman’s economic value (bride price) is not compromised, that is to say, as long as she is not a virgin. There are poems in the Song of Songs that eulogize a love affair between two unmarried persons, though commentators have often conspired to cover up the fact with heavy layers of allegorical interpretation. In various parts of the Christian world, quite different attitudes have prevailed about sexual intercourse before marriage. In some Christian communities, proof of fertility (that is, pregnancy) was required for marriage. This was especially the case in farming areas where the inability to produce children-workers could mean economic hardship. Today, many single adults, the widowed, and the divorced are reverting to “biblical” practice, while others believe that sexual intercourse belongs only within marriage. Both views are Scriptural. Which is right?

    7. The Bible virtually lacks terms for the sexual organs, being content with such euphemisms as “foot” or “thigh” for the genitals, and using other euphemisms to describe coitus, such as “he knew her.” Today most of us regard such language as “puritanical” and contrary to a proper regard for the goodness of creation. In short, we don’t follow Biblical practice.

    8. Semen and menstrual blood rendered all who touched them unclean (Lev. 15:16-24). Intercourse rendered one unclean until sundown; menstruation rendered the woman unclean for seven days. Today most people would regard semen and menstrual fluid as completely natural and only at times “messy,” not “unclean.”

    9. Social regulations regarding adultery, incest, rape and prostitution are, in the Old Testament, determined largely by considerations of the males’ property rights over women. Prostitution was considered quite natural and necessary as a safeguard of the virginity of the unmarried and the property rights of husbands (Gen. 38:12-19; Josh. 2:1-7). A man was not guilty of sin for visiting a prostitute, though the prostitute herself was regarded as a sinner. Paul must appeal to reason in attacking prostitution (1 Cor. 6:12-20); he cannot lump it in the category of adultery (vs. 9).

    Today we are moving, with great social turbulence and at a high but necessary cost, toward a more equitable, non-patriarchal set of social arrangements in which women are no longer regarded as the chattel of men. We are also trying to move beyond the double standard. Love, fidelity and mutual respect replace property rights. We have, as yet, made very little progress in changing the double standard in regard to prostitution. As we leave behind patriarchal gender relations, what will we do with the patriarchalism in the Bible?

    10. Jews were supposed to practice endogamy–that is, marriage within the twelve tribes of Israel. Until recently a similar rule prevailed in the American South, in laws against interracial marriage (miscegenation). We have witnessed, within the lifetime of many of us, the nonviolent struggle to nullify state laws against intermarriage and the gradual change in social attitudes toward interracial relationships. Sexual mores can alter quite radically even in a single lifetime.

    11. The law of Moses allowed for divorce (Deut. 24:1-4); Jesus categorically forbids it (Mark 10:1-12; Matt. 19:9 softens his severity). Yet many Christians, in clear violation of a command of Jesus, have been divorced. Why, then, do some of these very people consider themselves eligible for baptism, church membership, communion, and ordination, but not homosexuals? What makes the one so much greater a sin than the other, especially considering the fact that Jesus never even mentioned homosexuality but explicitly condemned divorce? Yet we ordain divorcees. Why not homosexuals?

    12. The Old Testament regarded celibacy as abnormal, and 1 Tim. 4:1-3 calls compulsory celibacy a heresy. Yet the Catholic Church has made it mandatory for priests and nuns. Some Christian ethicists demand celibacy of homosexuals, whether they have a vocation for celibacy or not. But this legislates celibacy by category, not by divine calling. Others argue that since God made men and women for each other in order to be fruitful and multiply, homosexuals reject God’s intent in creation. But this would mean that childless couples, single persons, priests and nuns would be in violation of God’s intention in their creation. Those who argue thus must explain why the apostle Paul never married. And are they prepared to charge Jesus with violating the will of God by remaining single?

    Certainly heterosexual marriage is normal, else the race would die out. But it is not normative. God can bless the world through people who are married and through people who are single, and it is false to generalize from the marriage of most people to the marriage of everyone. In 1 Cor. 7:7 Paul goes so far as to call marriage a “charisma,” or divine gift, to which not everyone is called. He preferred that people remain as he was–unmarried. In an age of overpopulation, perhaps a gay orientation is especially sound ecologically!

    13. In many other ways we have developed different norms from those explicitly laid down by the Bible. For example, “If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity” (Deut. 25:11f.). We, on the contrary, might very well applaud her for trying to save her husband’s life!

    14. The Old and New Testaments both regarded slavery as normal and nowhere categorically condemned it. Part of that heritage was the use of female slaves, concubines and captives as sexual toys, breeding machines, or involuntary wives by their male owners, which 2 Sam. 5:13, Judges 19-21 and Num. 31:18 permitted–and as many American slave owners did some 150 years ago, citing these and numerous other Scripture passages as their justification.

    The Problem of Authority

    These cases are relevant to our attitude toward the authority of Scripture. They are not cultic prohibitions from the Holiness Code that are clearly superseded in Christianity, such as rules about eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of two different materials. They are rules concerning sexual behavior, and they fall among the moral commandments of Scripture. Clearly we regard certain rules, especially in the Old Testament, as no longer binding. Other things we regard as binding, including legislation in the Old Testament that is not mentioned at all in the New. What is our principle of selection here?

    For example, virtually all modern readers would agree with the Bible in rejecting: incest, rape, adultery, and intercourse with animals. But we disagree with the Bible on most other sexual mores. The Bible condemned the following behaviors which we generally allow: intercourse during menstruation, celibacy, exogamy (marriage with non-Jews), naming sexual organs, nudity (under certain conditions), masturbation (some Christians still condemn this), birth control (some Christians still forbid this).

    And the Bible regarded semen and menstrual blood as unclean, which most of us do not. Likewise, the Bible permitted behaviors that we today condemn: prostitution, polygamy, levirate marriage, sex with slaves, concubinage, treatment of women as property, and very early marriage (for the girl, age 11-13).

    And while the Old Testament accepted divorce, Jesus forbade it. In short, of the sexual mores mentioned here, we only agree with the Bible on four of them, and disagree with it on sixteen!

    Surely no one today would recommend reviving the levirate marriage. So why do we appeal to proof texts in Scripture in the case of homosexuality alone, when we feel perfectly free to disagree with Scripture regarding most other sexual practices? Obviously many of our choices in these matters are arbitrary. Mormon polygamy was outlawed in this country, despite the constitutional protection of freedom of religion, because it violated the sensibilities of the dominant Christian culture. Yet no explicit biblical prohibition against polygamy exists.

    If we insist on placing ourselves under the old law, as Paul reminds us, we are obligated to keep every commandment of the law (Gal. 5:3). But if Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4), if we have been discharged from the law to serve, not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit (Rom. 7:6), then all of these biblical sexual mores come under the authority of the Spirit. We cannot then take even what Paul himself says as a new Law. Christians reserve the right to pick and choose which sexual mores they will observe, though they seldom admit to doing just that. And this is as true of evangelicals and fundamentalists as it is of liberals and mainliners.

    Judge for Yourselves

    The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is simply that the Bible has no sexual ethic. There is no Biblical sex ethic. Instead, it exhibits a variety of sexual mores, some of which changed over the thousand year span of biblical history. Mores are unreflective customs accepted by a given community. Many of the practices that the Bible prohibits, we allow, and many that it allows, we prohibit. The Bible knows only a love ethic, which is constantly being brought to bear on whatever sexual mores are dominant in any given country, or culture, or period.

    The very notion of a “sex ethic” reflects the materialism and splitness of modern life, in which we increasingly define our identity sexually. Sexuality cannot be separated off from the rest of life. No sex act is “ethical” in and of itself, without reference to the rest of a person’s life, the patterns of the culture, the special circumstances faced, and the will of God. What we have are simply sexual mores, which change, sometimes with startling rapidity, creating bewildering dilemmas. Just within one lifetime we have witnessed the shift from the ideal of preserving one’s virginity until marriage, to couples living together for several years before getting married. The response of many Christians is merely to long for the hypocrisies of an earlier era.

    I agree that rules and norms are necessary; that is what sexual mores are. But rules and norms also tend to be impressed into the service of the Domination System, and to serve as a form of crowd control rather than to enhance the fullness of human potential. So we must critique the sexual mores of any given time and clime by the love ethic exemplified by Jesus. Defining such a love ethic is not complicated. It is non-exploitative (hence no sexual exploitation of children, no using of another to their loss), it does not dominate (hence no patriarchal treatment of women as chattel), it is responsible, mutual, caring, and loving. Augustine already dealt with this in his inspired phrase, “Love God, and do as you please.”

    Our moral task, then, is to apply Jesus’ love ethic to whatever sexual mores are prevalent in a given culture. This doesn’t mean everything goes. It means that everything is to be critiqued by Jesus’ love commandment. We might address younger teens, not with laws and commandments whose violation is a sin, but rather with the sad experiences of so many of our own children who find too much early sexual intimacy overwhelming, and who react by voluntary celibacy and even the refusal to date. We can offer reasons, not empty and unenforceable orders. We can challenge both gays and straights to question their behaviors in the light of love and the requirements of fidelity, honesty, responsibility, and genuine concern for the best interests of the other and of society as a whole.

    Christian morality, after all, is not a iron chastity belt for repressing urges, but a way of expressing the integrity of our relationship with God. It is the attempt to discover a manner of living that is consistent with who God created us to be. For those of same-sex orientation, as for heterosexuals, being moral means rejecting sexual mores that violate their own integrity and that of others, and attempting to discover what it would mean to live by the love ethic of Jesus.

    Morton Kelsey goes so far as to argue that homosexual orientation has nothing to do with morality, any more than left-handedness. It is simply the way some people’s sexuality is configured. Morality enters the picture when that predisposition is enacted. If we saw it as a God-given gift to those for whom it is normal, we could get beyond the acrimony and brutality that have so often characterized the unchristian behavior of Christians toward gays.

    Approached from the point of view of love rather than that of law, the issue is at once transformed. Now the question is not “What is permitted?” but rather “What does it mean to love my homosexual neighbor?” Approached from the point of view of faith rather than works, the question ceases to be “What constitutes a breach of divine law in the sexual realm?” and becomes instead “What constitutes integrity before the God revealed in the cosmic lover, Jesus Christ?” Approached from the point of view of the Spirit rather than the letter, the question ceases to be “What does Scripture command?” and becomes “What is the Word that the Spirit speaks to the churches now, in the light of Scripture, tradition, theology, and, yes, psychology, genetics, anthropology, and biology?” We can’t continue to build ethics on the basis of bad science.

    In a little-remembered statement, Jesus said, “Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?” (Luke 12:57 NRSV). Such sovereign freedom strikes terror in the hearts of many Christians; they would rather be under law and be told what is right. Yet Paul himself echoes Jesus’ sentiment when he says, “Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!” (1 Cor. 6:3 RSV). The last thing Paul would want is for people to respond to his ethical advice as a new law engraved on tablets of stone. He is himself trying to “judge for himself what is right.” If now new evidence is in on the phenomenon of homosexuality, are we not obligated–no, free–to re-evaluate the whole issue in the light of all the available data and decide what is right, under God, for ourselves? Is this not the radical freedom for obedience in which the gospel establishes us?

    Where the Bible mentions homosexual behavior at all, it clearly condemns it. I freely grant that. The issue is precisely whether that Biblical judgment is correct. The Bible sanctioned slavery as well, and nowhere attacked it as unjust. Are we prepared to argue today that slavery is biblically justified? One hundred and fifty years ago, when the debate over slavery was raging, the Bible seemed to be clearly on the slaveholders’ side. Abolitionists were hard pressed to justify their opposition to slavery on biblical grounds. Yet today, if you were to ask Christians in the South whether the Bible sanctions slavery, virtually everyone would agree that it does not. How do we account for such a monumental shift?

    What happened is that the churches were finally driven to penetrate beyond the legal tenor of Scripture to an even deeper tenor, articulated by Israel out of the experience of the Exodus and the prophets and brought to sublime embodiment in Jesus’ identification with harlots, tax collectors, the diseased and maimed and outcast and poor. It is that God sides with the powerless. God liberates the oppressed. God suffers with the suffering and groans toward the reconciliation of all things. In the light of that supernal compassion, whatever our position on gays, the gospel’s imperative to love, care for, and be identified with their sufferings is unmistakably clear.

    In the same way, women are pressing us to acknowledge the sexism and patriarchalism that pervades Scripture and has alienated so many women from the church. The way out, however, is not to deny the sexism in Scripture, but to develop an interpretive theory that judges even Scripture in the light of the revelation in Jesus. What Jesus gives us is a critique of domination in all its forms, a critique that can be turned on the Bible itself. The Bible thus contains the principles of its own correction. We are freed from bibliolatry, the worship of the Bible. It is restored to its proper place as witness to the Word of God. And that word is a Person, not a book.

    With the interpretive grid provided by a critique of domination, we are able to filter out the sexism, patriarchalism, violence, and homophobia that are very much a part of the Bible, thus liberating it to reveal to us in fresh ways the inbreaking, in our time, of God’s domination-free order.

    An Appeal for Tolerance

    What most saddens me in this whole raucous debate in the churches is how sub-Christian most of it has been. It is characteristic of our time that the issues most difficult to assess, and which have generated the greatest degree of animosity, are issues on which the Bible can be interpreted as supporting either side. I am referring to abortion and homosexuality.

    We need to take a few steps back and be honest with ourselves. I am deeply convinced of the rightness of what I have said in this essay. But I must acknowledge that it is not an air tight case. You can find weaknesses in it, just as I can in others’. The truth is, we are not given unequivocal guidance in either area, abortion or homosexuality.

    Rather than tearing at each others’s throats, therefore, we should humbly admit our limitations. How do I know I am correctly interpreting God’s word for us today? How do you? Wouldn’t it be wiser for Christians to lower the decibels by 95 percent and quietly present our beliefs, knowing full well that we might be wrong?

    I know of a couple, both well known Christian authors in their own right, who have both spoken out on the issue of homosexuality. She supports gays, passionately; he opposes their behavior, strenuously. So far as I can tell, this couple still enjoy each other’s company, eat at the same table, and, for all I know, sleep in the same bed.

    We in the church need to get our priorities straight. We have not reached a consensus about who is right on the issue of homosexuality. But what is clear, utterly clear, is that we are commanded to love one another. Love not just our gay sisters and brothers who are often sitting beside us, unacknowledged, in church, but all of us who are involved in this debate. These are issues about which we should amiably agree to disagree. We don’t have to tear whole denominations to shreds in order to air our differences on this point. If that couple I mentioned can continue to embrace across this divide, surely we can do so as well.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Question: “Is the Bible relevant for today?”

    Answer: Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” While the Bible was completed approximately 1900 years ago, its accuracy and relevance for today remain unchanged. The Bible is the sole objective source of all the revelation God has given us about Himself and His plan for humanity.

    The Bible contains a great deal of information about the natural world that has been confirmed by scientific observations and research. Some of these passages include Leviticus 17:11; Ecclesiastes 1:6-7; Job 36:27-29; Psalm 102:25-27 and Colossians 1:16-17. As the Bible’s story of God’s redemptive plan for humanity unfolds, many different characters are vividly described. In those descriptions, the Bible provides a great deal of information about human behavior and tendencies. Our own day-to-day experience shows us that this information is more accurate and descriptive of the human condition than any psychology textbook. Many historical facts recorded in the Bible have been confirmed by extra-biblical sources. Historical research often shows a great deal of agreement between biblical accounts and extra-biblical accounts of the same events.

    However, the Bible is not a history book, a psychology text, or a scientific journal. The Bible is the description God gave us about who He is, and His desires and plans for humanity. The most significant component of this revelation is the story of our separation from God by sin and God’s provision for restoration of fellowship through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross. Our need for redemption does not change. Neither does God’s desire to reconcile us to Himself.

    The Bible contains a great deal of accurate and relevant information. The Bible’s most important message—redemption—is universally and perpetually applicable to humanity. God’s Word will never be outdated, superseded, or improved upon. Cultures change, laws change, generations come and go, but the Word of God is as relevant today as it was when it was first written. Not all of Scripture necessarily applies explicitly to us today, but all Scriptures contain truth that we can, and should, apply to our lives today.

    Recommended Resource: The Quest Study Bible.
    —————————————————————————

    Question: “How can we know what parts of the Bible apply to us today?”

    Answer: Much misunderstanding about the Christian life occurs because we either assign commands and exhortations we should be following as ‘era specific’ commands that only applied to the original audience, or we take commands and exhortations that are specific to a particular audience and make them timeless truths. How do we go about discerning the difference? The first thing to note is that the canon of Scripture was closed by the end of the 1st century AD. What that means is most, if not all, of the Bible was not originally written to us. The authors had in mind the hearers of that day and probably were not aware that their words would be read and interpreted by people all over the world centuries later. That should cause us to be very careful when interpreting the Bible for today’s Christians. It seems that much of contemporary evangelical preaching is so concerned with the practical application of Scripture that we treat the Bible as a lake from which to fish application for today’s Christians. All of this is done at the expense of proper exegesis and interpretation.

    The top three rules of Hermeneutics (the art and science of biblical interpretation) are: 1) Context; 2) Context; 3) Context. Before we can tell 21st century Christians how the Bible applies to them, we must first come to the best possible understanding of what the Bible meant to its original audience. If we come up with an application that would have been foreign to the original audience, there is a very strong possibility that we did not interpret the passage correctly. Once we are confident that we understand what the text meant to its original hearers, we then need to determine the width of the chasm between us and them. In other words, what are the differences in language, time, culture, geography, setting and situation? All of these must be taken into account before application can be made. Once the width of the chasm has been measured, we can then attempt to build the bridge over the chasm by finding the commonalities between the original audience and ourselves. Finally, we can then find application for ourselves in our time and situation.

    Another important thing to note is that each passage has only one correct interpretation. It can have a range of application, but only one interpretation. What this means is that some applications of biblical passages are better than others. If one application is closer to the correct interpretation than another, then it is a better application of that text. For example, many sermons have been preached on 1 Samuel 17 (the David and Goliath story) that center around on ‘defeating the giants in your life.’ They lightly skim over the details of the narrative and go straight to application, and that application usually involves allegorizing Goliath into tough, difficult and intimidating situations in one’s life that must be overcome by faith. There is also an attempt to allegorize the five smooth stones David picked up to defeat his giant. These sermons usually conclude by exhorting us to be faithful like David.

    While these interpretations make engaging sermons, it is doubtful the original audience would have gotten that message from this story. Before we can apply the truth in 1 Samuel 17, we must know how the original audience understood it, and that means determining the overall purpose of 1 Samuel as a book. Without going into a detailed exegesis of 1 Samuel 17, let’s just say it’s not about defeating the giants in your life with faith. That may be a distant application, but as an interpretation of the passage, it’s alien to the text. God is the hero of the story and David was his chosen vehicle to bring salvation to his people. The story contrasts the people’s king (Saul) with God’s king (David), and it also foreshadows what Christ (the Son of David) would do for us in providing our salvation.

    Another common example of interpreting with disregard to the context is John 14:13-14. Reading this verse out of context would seem to indicate that if we ask God anything (unqualified), we will receive it as long as we use the formula “in Jesus’ name.” Applying the rules of proper hermeneutics to this passage, we see Jesus speaking to his disciples in the upper room on the night of his eventual betrayal. The immediate audience is the disciples. This is essentially a promise to His disciples that God will provide the necessary resources for them to complete their task. It is a passage of comfort because Jesus would soon be leaving them. Is there an application for 21st century Christians? Of course! If we pray in Jesus’ name, we pray according to God’s will and God will give us what we need to accomplish His will in and through us. Furthermore, the response we get will always glorify God. Far from a ‘carte blanche’ way of getting what we want, this passage teaches us that we must always submit to God’s will in prayer, and that God will always provide what we need to accomplish His will.

    Proper biblical interpretation is built on the following principles:

    1. Context. To understand fully, start small and extend outward: verse, passage, chapter, book, author and testament/covenant.
    2. Try to come to grips with how the original audience would have understood the text.
    3. Consider the width of the chasm between us and the original audience.
    4. It’s a safe bet that any moral command from the Old Testament that is repeated in the New Testament is an example of a ‘timeless truth.’
    5. Remember that each passage has one and only one correct interpretation, but can have many applications (some better than others).
    6. Always be humble and don’t forget the role of the Holy Spirit in interpretation. He has promised to lead us into all truth (John 16:13).

    As mentioned earlier, biblical interpretation is as much an art as it is science. There are rules and principles, but some of the more difficult or controversial passages require more effort than others. We should always be open to changing an interpretation if the Spirit convicts and the evidence supports.

    Recommended Resource: The Quest Study Bible.
    ————————————————————————–

    Question: “Why is it important to believe in biblical inerrancy?”

    Answer: We live in a time that tends to shrug its shoulders when confronted with error. Instead of asking, like Pilate, “What is truth?” postmodern man says, “Nothing is truth” or perhaps “There is truth, but we cannot know it.” We’ve grown accustomed to being lied to, and many people seem comfortable with the false notion that the Bible, too, contains errors.

    The doctrine of biblical inerrancy is an extremely important one because the truth does matter. This issue reflects on the character of God and is foundational to our understanding of everything the Bible teaches. Here are some reasons why we should absolutely believe in biblical inerrancy:

    1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements. Note that it doesn’t say God’s Word is “mostly” pure or scripture is “nearly” perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories.

    2. The Bible stands or falls as a whole. If a major newspaper were routinely discovered to contain errors, it would be quickly discredited. It would make no difference to say, “All the errors are confined to page three.” For a paper to be reliable in any of its parts, it must be factual throughout. In the same way, if the Bible is inaccurate when it speaks of geology, why should its theology be trusted? It is either a trustworthy document, or it is not.

    3. The Bible is a reflection of its Author. All books are. The Bible was written by God Himself as He worked through human authors in a process called “inspiration.” “All scripture is God-breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). See also 2 Peter 1:21 and Jeremiah 1:2.

    We believe that the God who created the universe is capable of writing a book. And the God who is perfect is capable of writing a perfect book. The issue is not simply “Does the Bible have a mistake?” but “Can God make a mistake?” If the Bible contains factual errors, then God is not omniscient and is capable of making errors Himself. If the Bible contains misinformation, then God is not truthful but is instead a liar. If the Bible contains contradictions, then God is the author of confusion. In other words, if biblical inerrancy is not true, then God is not God.

    4. The Bible judges us, not vice versa. “For the word of God…judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). Notice the relationship between “the heart” and “the Word.” The Word examines; the heart is being examined. To discount parts of the Word for any reason is to reverse this process. We become the examiners, and the Word must submit to our “superior insight.” Yet God says, “But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?” (Romans 9:20).

    5. The Bible’s message must be taken as a whole. It is not a mixture of doctrine that we are free to select from. Many people like the verses that say God loves them, but they dislike the verses that say God will judge sinners. But we simply cannot pick and choose what we like about the Bible and throw the rest away. If the Bible is wrong about hell, for example, then who is to say it is right about heaven—or about anything else? If the Bible cannot get the details right about creation, then maybe the details about salvation cannot be trusted either. If the story of Jonah is a myth, then perhaps so is the story of Jesus. On the contrary, God has said what He has said, and the Bible presents us a full picture of who God is. “Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89).

    6. The Bible is our only rule for faith and practice. If it is not reliable, then on what do we base our beliefs? Jesus asks for our trust, and that includes trust in what He says in His Word. John 6:67-69 is a beautiful passage. Jesus had just witnessed the departure of many who had claimed to follow Him. Then He turns to the twelve apostles and asks, “You do not want to leave too, do you?” At this, Peter speaks for the rest when he says, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” May we have the same trust in the Lord and in His words of life.

    None of what we have presented here should be taken as a rejection of true scholarship. Biblical inerrancy does not mean that we are to stop using our minds or accept what the Bible says blindly. We are commanded to study the Word (2 Timothy 2:15), and those who search it out are commended (Acts 17:11). Also, we recognize that there are difficult passages in the Bible, as well as sincere disagreements over interpretation. Our goal is to approach Scripture reverently and prayerfully, and when we find something we do not understand, we pray harder, study more, and—if the answer still eludes us—humbly acknowledge our own limitations in the face of the perfect Word of God.

    Recommended Resource: The Big Book of Bible Difficulties by Geisler & Howe.

  • You have to love this line towards the end.

    “Biblical inerrancy does not mean that we are to stop using our minds or accept what the Bible says blindly.”

  • Interesting point.

    “We should always be open to changing an interpretation if the Spirit convicts and the evidence supports.”

  • Dear Giovanna and Claude in So. Cal,

    I really don’t think people want to hear what Rev. Wink or anyone else has to say about an issue as much as we want to hear from you. You are the one who is here and now, not Rev. Wink or Geisler and Howe. If they would like to join us, would you mind allowing them to do so on their own? I think this blog would be served better if we left the so called “experts” out of it. No one is debating him or them, simply because he is/they are not here to debate, but you are. If you would like to reason together, than perhaps you could use your own arguments, not depend on someone else to make them for you.
    Perhaps you could refer to them and pick one point to debate in your own understanding of that point. Do you really think that we can’t do research on our own?

    I’m not trying to disrespect either of you thoughtful contributors in the least. I just think this has become a tit for tat and demonstrates a lack of really listening to one another. If we hope to really reason together, we must first begin to listen to learn and speak to communicate while always allowing love to be our guide.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey KK: If you read what I post, it is called recommended. & besides are you like Pastor Bob. Just shut people out because you don’t like other peoples input? If that you. That is named cultic.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey KK: Honestly, are you the blog police also? Or are you more like Obama. Taking away everyone freedoms so you can only share you thoughts & talk us into beliving you & not the Bible that we are suppose to read. I know, you have me on LKL & you can be like Bob & than everyone can high-five you as you try to get into my life.
    Yea, thats Obama & you are following his model.

  • N one wants to read a couple thousand words of cut and paste in a blog. It does not strengthen your argument, it is just ignored by most. Summarize in your own words please. Links to recommended reading is the preferred method. Remember online discussions are a discussion, no one wants to sift through a filibuster.

  • I also want to mention we should welcome Beth and anyone else with differing opinions to the discussion. Tolerance is allowing for those who you disagree with to have a voice. This is in contrast to the pro-gay sites discussing the issue. I was banned and my posts were deleted for politely joining a discussion about JK and disagreeing with ” the Bible says nothing against homosexuality” stance. I have to admit it doesn’t seem very tolerant to delete or block posts you don’t agree with or can’t muster a counter argument against.

  • Claude in SoCal

    As far as I know, I just share my point of view. I’m not forcing anyone to read my stuff. That is why it is called freedom. You can just by pass it if you want. But KK is the blog czar. & that is what I can’t stand. People who only like to control other people. Obama & Hitler come to mind at this moment.

  • Claude: invoking Obama and Hitler together destroys any credibility you might have thought your points had. For a self-professed Christian you’re remarkably clueless about people, about the world, and about love.

    KK: by “us” I assume you mean Christians, you know, the ones who are quoting scripture endlessly ad nauseum to make their points? How is this different from quoting people who actually add substance to rational argument?

  • Claude in SoCal

    The diffrence is. I’m not forcing you to read the Bible or even agree with me. But I’m just stating what I belive. When someone doesn’t like what is said tell you what you can or can’t post or say that is Obama & Hitler like. They want to take your freedoms away. Or would you rather just shut everyone else down & just let no rules apply? It can’t be both.

  • Thanks, Steve. My post has been “awaiting moderation” for quite some time now. When and if it does show up I think it will be up above the long posts.

  • You are spouting gibberish, Claude. What freedoms have you had taken away? Who is trying to shut you down? Who wants no rules to apply? This is all stated without evidence and in half-broken English just like a confused teabagger. I understand that you don’t like Obama, but the fact that you lump him together with Hitler together signals to me that you have no valuable perspective.

  • Claude in So. Cal,

    I’m sorry that my comment elicited such a response from you. As I stated, it was not meant in any way to disrespect you, only to encourage your original ideas, in order that we may discuss, debate, reason, what ever you want to call it, with you personally. It was not mean to alienate anyone or take any of your freedoms away. I don’t think Bob, myself, or anyone else is trying to control anyone.
    However, as Steve Miller adeptly pointed out, “no one wants to read a couple thousand words of cut and paste in a blog. It does not strengthen your argument, it is just ignored by most. Summarize in your own words please. Links to recommended reading is the preferred method. Remember online discussions are a discussion, no one wants to sift through a filibuster.”
    I’m not saying that we can’t submit passionate and sometimes long rebuttals, these are occasionally necessary to fully make our point, but the idea here is to communicate. If our desire is to fully communicate our points of view, perhaps people would be more apt to really listen, if we all first really try to hear one another.
    Joseph, if you read my post again, I think you will discover that when I used the word us, it was not specifically encompassing only Christians or anyone in particular, it was referring to the collective whole. Further, I think that since this blog spawned from a discussion of how the Bible is clear on God’s stance on homosexuality, I think that referring to scripture would not be out of line and is actually relevant to the discussion. After all, this is a pastors blog, it would stand to reason that scripture may be quoted here. Still, if the quoting of scripture has become ad nauseam to you, why are you still here? Just curious as to your motivation to stay. Despite the fact that you find the quoting of scripture boring or annoying, I think the fact that you stay, says that you must be comfortable here. I’m glad for that.
    I really feel that we can all be civilized and leave the name calling or unkind words out of this discussion in order that we might effectually reason together. Part of respect is giving the benefit of the doubt; I believe that we all encompass the ability to rationally discuss our differences – even passionately – without disrespecting anyone, and will achieve more understanding if we do.
    If pointing this out somehow makes me the blog police, so be it, I’ll take a hit for the team, if that will make this a more productive use of everyone’s time. I think it is rather obvious (from some of the comments above) and unfortunate that even adults need a gentle reminder once in a while. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey Joesph: By your owen statement you made my point for me. Thank you.

  • I cannot believe, that with all of our worlds troubles, Mr. Bob here has chosen to waste his time condemning this woman. Strip all of the love talk away and that’s exactly what’s left… condemnation. How self-righteous, get a life Bob.

  • Except that only you know what your point is!

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey Joesph: I’ve been called worse names than the one you gave me.

  • Claude: I’m not sure what name you think I called you. But if you’ve been called worse, maybe it’s time to start taking notice of the effect your irrationality has on people.

  • KK: I can play this game too. I really don’t want to hear what anyone else has to say about an issue as much as I want to hear from you. You are the one who is here and now, not Jesus. I think this blog would be served better if we left the so called “experts” out of it. No one is debating him or them, simply because he is/they are not here to debate, but you are. If you would like to reason together, than perhaps you could use your own arguments, not depend on the Bible to make them for you. If the quoting of other expert sources has become too extensive for you, why are you still here? Just curious as to your motivation to stay.

  • Thanks for allowing the Holy Spirit of our Lord give perspective to those who yearn for it. It is hard to endure the world’s spin on the issues that are life- threatening (eternally) but we must listen if we really care and then we must respond from what we know to be true that others may have the knowledge of that truth and be released fromthe bondage of their own understanding.

  • Oh, but He is here Joseph, he’s alive and well and perhaps that’s why you stay? He is calling you, and wants to have a relationship with you.

    It was a simple question, if you are uncomfortable answering it, that’s fine to say. You don’t have to elude the answer by asking another question. Dialog works that way you know. There is a give and take. Unless you just want to speak at someone? Do you need to release your wrath on me now? Should I offer the other cheek then? Will that make you feel better? What ever it takes Joseph to bring peace and the only Only One who can give it, to your life, I’m happy to oblige.

  • To answer your question as to my motivation to stay… I can assure you that I don’t stay here for my benefit Joseph as much as for yours. God loves you, can’t you please consider that possibility?

  • By repeating your questions back to you I was pointing out the implied lack of self-awareness (which persists), in that you cannot see how the same questions apply to you. And speaking of talking at someone: “God loves you, can’t you please consider that possibility?”

    The only thing alive here is the sanctimony of people who sare o convinced of their right standing–regardless of the empty cover of claiming to be a sinner–that they are blind to their own pride. So many on this page profess to be Christians and I don’t hear anyone sounding like one. Your patronizing and sarcastic tone make it sound like you are in love with yourself, not Jesus. And Claude, equating Obama and Hitler, demeaning the memories of 15 million people murdered.

    What kind of place is this?

  • (typo corrected) By repeating your questions back to you I was pointing out the implied lack of self-awareness (which persists), in that you cannot see how the same questions apply to you. And speaking of talking at someone: “God loves you, can’t you please consider that possibility?”

    The only thing alive here is the sanctimony of people who are so convinced of their right standing–regardless of the empty cover of claiming to be a sinner–that they are blind to their own pride. So many on this page profess to be Christians and I don’t hear anyone sounding like one. Your patronizing and sarcastic tone make it sound like you are in love with yourself, not Jesus. And Claude, equating Obama and Hitler, demeaning the memories of 15 million people murdered.

    What kind of place is this?

  • I just watched Larry King. I was saddened by the disillusionment of many. Like you I try not to judge. My sister is in a same-sex relationship. She doesn’t understand it either she knows that it is wrong. Her partner also raised Christian says she’s not gay, but just in love with a woman. I had a conversation with them both and told them that I can’t say “yes” to something God has clearly said “no” to, but I’m not their judge. These two women are being deceived. My pastor reminds me of you. He loves too much not to call sin, sin. My sister and her friend are going to be coming to our church and they will hear the truth preached in love. I admire you for standing up and not bowing your knee to the world as so many have done in their compromise of sin. Bottom line “sin” (lie, murder, adultery…) separates us from God. Just like HE couldn’t look on sin when Jesus was carrying ours He can’t look upon it when we are holding onto ours. Their names are Cindy and Paula and I appreciate your prayers for them
    Thanks,
    Debbie

  • No disrespect to the word of God, but I don’t need the bible to know that 2 dudes just don’t fit together neither do 2 women. But I am sure I will be called a hater. If people kept what they do in the privacy of thier bedrooms, PRIVATE, then there would not be a need to discuss this personal matter. And that applies to heterosexuals as well.

    If you want to pick a fight with a real HATER , then go after those fools at the Westboro Baptist Chuch…what’s his name Phelps? They are disgusting and shameful. I don’t know one christian or Pastor that has shown HATE to homosexuals. And if anyone thinks Pastor Bob has shown hate, then you are just a big baby. He could not have been more loving and sincere. He is not my pastor either.

  • Cynthia: I find your point confusing. Are you saying a relationship should be judged by how well people’s genitals fit together? Should people with unusually shaped genitals, or genitals that don’t complement, not be allowed to marry? Should couples be checked before marriage? If it’s not a problem for the couples, why would you care?

    Telling someone they are going to hell if they don’t act the way you want them to sounds like an expression of hatred to me. If you talk to your children that way you’re not fit to be a parent.

  • KK

    The problem with leaving the experts out is Pastor Bob probably considers himself an expert and is trying to validate his point on being able to judge Jennifer’s sin.

    I was merely showing that others that are as equal if not even greater than him in their education have shown that they do not believe as he does.

    My education is extensive but I do not qualify as an expert on interpretation of this subject in the Bible. I believe Christians fall into the category of being a hypocrite when saying Jennifer is leading a life of sin and is choosing it. It has been show that homosexuality is not a choice, that many of them live long lasting loving relationships loving God while being saved through Christ. Yes, their are some homosexuals that flaunt their sexuality inappropriately but so do heterosexuals you can’t judge the entire group by what a few do.

    What I keep thinking about is for all of you saying it’s a sin by your interpretation of the Bible, and it’s been proven interpretations change as our knowledge grows what happens to your souls when you find out you are wrong? I would hope that you would realize then that the choices you are making on the subject puts you in the same predicament Jennifer finds herself in. Only when you get to the other-side you will find out the REAL truth. The fact God has created homosexual animals and continues to do so makes me believe he is showing us his view on the subject otherwise why would he have created them in the first place?

  • Christian Singer Jennifer Knapp “Comes Out”: Is It OK to be Christian and Gay? « Spirit and Truth

    [...] Pastor Bob Botsford of Horizon Christian Fellowship Church, came on the show and gave an excellent Biblical response and explanation of why Ms. Kanpp is actually in sin and out of step with the Bible. And that’s what it comes down to. What does the Word of God say on these questions? So let’s go through the issues. [...]

  • 1 Cor 2:14
    14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    NIV

    I truly believe that anyone who has experienced rebirth and loves Jesus and follows him understands what your saying Bob. Great Job on not backing down and not letting the line be blurred more than it already is in our secularized culture. You have inspired me to be more dilligent in standing for truth. the argument for the word homosexual maybe being translated wrong is weak…., This is just classic human condition of wanting to have our cake and eat it to outside of repentence, which God will not allow. I miss the days when people sinned and knew it was sin and called it sin and there werent these empty relative dialogue’s of trying to justify sin as righteousness. Just be hot or cold, please. somebody should study the term syncretism

  • I just had the opportunity to watch the Larry King Live interview and I felt compelled to comment on your blog. You did an excellent job of defending the beliefs of the Christian faith with great love and respect for both J Knapp and T Haggard. Often Christians seem to waste this opportunity to take a loving stand and you did an incredible job. You were clearly the odd man out.
    I have been a long time J Knapp fan and was sad to hear of her coming out. The Christianity Today article bothered me, but I must say this interview really saddened me. I think what struck me the most was when she was asking, “Why are you not in this chair so I can grill you about your sins? Why do you have to pick this one?”
    It seems so obvious to me that by the very act of “coming out” a person is identifying themselves as a homosexual and taking on that persona. A person is taking on that one personal attribute and telling everyone – “this is who I am”. For folks who didn’t know Jennifer Knapp and are seeing her come back she is seen as a Christian girl who came out as a lesbian. They may no nothing else about her – but that they know her sexual orientation. That is why it is different.
    Say a minister had a problem with gossiping and he got in front of his church or did a magazine article and said – “I am a gossip. This is who I am, it is how God made me. I didn’t choose to be a gossip, it just comes easy. I know God loves me and He made me a gossip, so he must not have a problem with it. Please embrace my life as a gossip. I will continue to do it and I hope you are a congregation who accepts that.” I choose gossip because it is everywhere – a lot of people in the church gossip. But even as “accepted” or prominent as it is – it is still wrong. The Bible is all over it. When people have a problem with it they know it, and Christians repent of it. My guess is that the chairs in the sanctuary would be a bit lighter the next Sunday. By identifying yourself with something the Bible specifically speaks out against how can you be taken seriously as a minister of the gospel? It would be hard to identify yourself as a gossip and a Christian.
    I believe there will be homosexuals in heaven, I believe there will be gossips in heaven. I believe the defining road to heaven is a personal, life-changing relationship with Jesus Christ. All Christians should identify themselves as that one thing and one thing only – a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ – nothing else matters. If something matters enough that it makes a dual title necessary such as “Homosexual/Christian” or “Gossip/Christian” then you might need to reevaluate.

  • Hello everyone it me Matt again.

    I just have to say lately I’ve been trying to give my all to the Lord…just trying to let him control my thoughts, instead of me. I have to say it has been a struggle. I don’t think I’ve ever struggled with anything as much as this. I thank K.K and Mike Zanella for praying for me, and giving me the advice I need to hear. I absolutely agree that God is the ONLY WAY.
    My main concern as of now is that fact that I feel like I’m getting brutally misinformed & confusion is running rampid in my life. It sucks that I keep hearing different things. And no matter what I would always agree with what the Lord has to say, because so much of bible prophecy is being fulfilled. And that right ther tells you the Jesus is real, and the bible is accurate. It’s just when ppl say that homosexuality is not a sin. That its not a choice. And that its the same as being born with brown hair, or green eyes. It’s like I hear so many ppl say Jesus loves you as you are. And then theyre are ppl who say that we are all born with sin, and its our choice to give into it. And after all that I have heard why am I still confused??? Honestly if I just knew right now that I would go to hell for being gay then I would 100% turn away from my sin and give everything to God completely. But its like what we were wrong, and what if I did make it to heaven being gay. I’m still not sure, and I hate that I’m not sure. To be perfectly honest I wanna leave homosexuality, and give it all to God. But then what if I’m missing out on something that maybe I just was’nt so sure about, or misinformed. Should I stop listening to the ppl that say homosexuality is ok? It’s so HARD!!! It’s like there will be days when I focus on God completely and pray. Then I go out and sometimes I will see an attractive guy and I’ll suddenly feel attracted to him. It’s like those thoughts just never go away. Its so hard. So what I do is I stay home all the time keeping myself isolated, cause if I’m home then I’m not out lookin at guys. But even if i just look at a magazine, or watch a show I still get those physical attractions. What if those never leave me? I cry myself to sleep most nights, begging God to clear my head, and give me thoughts that he would want for me. I know i must try in my part too. Its just so many ppl tell me its ok to be who you are, you cant help it. They say people are just ignorant, and have fear of the word “gay” I have come to a conclusion that I am gonna live a celibate life. But still what if I get those attractions again? I’m 17 and I’ll be going off to college and be on my own this fall. What if I give into that lifestyle? Im scared. I feel as if I must hide away from the world, and stay isolated forever. This is so hard. I dont think God would want to see me like that. I feel like I’m miserable either way. If I’m serving God thats good, but I feel that I’m missing out on a life with a guy cause what if maybe just maybe its not a sin in a sense cause we misunderstood things…but then If I continue on my life of homosexuality I will continue to feel guilty and ashamed, and embarassed. I don’t know what to do with that problem. Sometimes I wish God would just take me home so I wouldnt have to sin and hurt him :( Please everyone just pray for me like you have never prayed for anyone before. I would totally appriciate that. And to Clause in Socal and Giovanna I have to tell you that K.K is just lookin out for the best of you! For the best of all of us. She truly cares with the love of God! And by you guys copying and pasting stuff from websites and I read that it just confuses me more. Because I need to understand that the Bible is the TRUTH no matter what. I think that when God made his law, his law was absolute! And he is not gonna change it for anyone. Question is why do I feel so ashamed, guilty and embarassed? I used to think it was cause I was hurting my parents…but maybe its my own conscience telling me Its wrong.

    One qeustion. Growing up as a boy my father never really spent time with me like a father should. I was always with my sister. I grew up around girls. Maybe I acted a bit more feminin than othr boys which caused girls not to like me which caused me to turn to boys.
    Well I was so young. How could God be angry with me if I couldnt help it? Now I undersand that I am older and know right from wrong. So if i give into sexual sin its my own fault right? Well even though I’m still gay and cant help it, but I’m not giving into sexual desires or dating guys then am I still sinning? Will I still make it to heaven?

    I tell you lifes not fair sometimes…but its only hard if we make it hard. We do have a Redeemer who can save us from sin. So badly I wanna expierience that utter msot LOVE and close relationship with Christ that I will no longer want to sin but focus on him completely. I want that more than anything. And through my christian life I feel I have not yet had that. I want it bad. Oh Dear Lord please hear my cry out to you. I wanna be close to you forever more. Please come to me as I come to you!!!

    God Bless You All!

    -Matt R

  • Hope everyone is doing good, and I’m praying for you all always!

    God Bless You!

  • Matt the part that so many are missing is that Jesus loves you and it is through him you will be forgiven no matter what sins you commit. You will continue to sin throughout your life knowingly and unknowingly. The part you have to understand is you have to love God and only God, live a life that doesn’t bring harm to others and love them as you would want to be loved. There will always be people that will tell you one way is right based on what they believe. Their beliefs come from their personal experiences and education they received for their life it does not mean they are correct. It’s their life not yours. I would say that as long as you enter into a relationship with someone, you are committed to them in love and respect till death do you part. You follow the moral codes that Bible outlines as a way to live, you will go to heaven, because Christ gave himself for you. History has shown that interpretations of the bible have changed over time so it’s not absolute. Many posters have shown that. God gave you a brain and wants you to use it to demonstrate your love, through Christ’s as you live your life. Many Christians commenting on this subject are in the same position as you are – they continue to sin and risk the possibility of not going to heaven too. It’s not our place to say if it’s sinful or not. If you truly understand God made you who you are, you have love in your heart, are not harming anyone then you live your life based on your own personal relationship with God. He knows what is in your heart, if your consciousness knows truth about whom you are then that too can be interpreted as not living in sin. I believe it would be more sinful to live a life of a lie than to honor the truth of who you are. I realize I am in the minority regarding this but I know Christ’s love is more powerful than those clinging to their misguided interpretations of the Bible. You have to decide what is right for you. If you find a partner, you both love God, are saved through Christ and live by the moral standards in the Bible then that is not abomination that some are claiming it is. It clearly states they did not have God in their hearts. The one thing you can’t do is go around sleeping with a lot of people and having sex outside of a committed relationship that recognizes God. There are thousands and thousands of homosexuals living in loving relationships, who are saved, love God and attend church every Sunday. The choice is yours and only yours. Jesus loves you let him show you the way not the mortals claiming righteousness.

  • “The Complete Teachings of Jesus Christ on Homosexuality

    It is a surprise to many to learn that none of the Gospel writers record Jesus as ever making a statement for or against homosexual orientation. And yet, at the same time Jesus was very vocal on aspects of morality and sexuality. In actual fact, it was late into the Christian era before homosexuality was (erroneously) equated with the sin of Sodom and before the Christian world “decided” homosexual persons were moral affronts to God.

    The Bible speaks very specifically about several distortions of homosexuality – it does not attempt to develop a broad picture of what we understand today as sexual orientation. Lesbian, bisexual and gay people do not see their sexuality in any way represented when the Bible speaks of the gang rape of angels by men, when it condemns the prostitution that was part of the pagan fertility cults, and when it decries relationships based solely on lust. Transgender people find biblical stories that witness to God’s and the early church’s inclusion of people of minority gender identity (the Ethiopian eunuch, for starters). The Biblical witness of relationships based on mutuality, respect, commitment and faithfulness are affirmed by many lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people of our Church.

    “They used the Bible to justify slavery. They used the Bible to justify the smothering of women’s gifts and talents. They used the Bible to sow seeds of anti-semitism, and then were incredulous that the Nazis could be so cruel. And once again, in our day, people in the church are using the Bible as a “Handbook for Bigotry”. This time, however, the targets are people of minority sexual orientation and gender identity.””

  • Regardless of your sexual orientation, sexual sin is sin – period. I didn’t say that, Pastor Bob didn’t say that. God said it. It is not a judgment on our part – the judgment is left to God. Our part is only to stand in agreement with HIM and fairly warn others of HIS judgment should they not turn from their sin. I didn’t say that; HE did. God wishes that all turn from their sin, but it’s their choice if they don’t. We are all making a personal choice of blessings or curse; heaven or hell. My question to you, Giovanna, is why must you insist on pulling others down with YOUR choice?

    Hebrews 10:26-29

    If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy (common) thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

  • Oh, and one more thing. YOU stand in judgment by calling us bigots for what we believe. Shame on you – you’re like the pot calling the kettle black. Again I repeat – we’re not judging; God is. We’re merely sending out warning of what God says in His word. On the other hand, you can’t claim that. Your claim is based solely and merely on opinion and not on the basis of the Highest authority. You are the one that stands in judgment wrongly accussing. Not the other way around.

  • “For if we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” Hebrews 10:26-29

    Many professing Christians misunderstand this passage. It does NOT talk about a saved person who lost his salvation! The passage in Hebrews where it speaks of “sin willfully”….Notice it says “sin willfully AFTER”. After what? After they received the knowledge of the truth!(gospel) This infers a specific sin…..What is this sin? The sin of UNBELIEF.That is the sin that will keep someone from being saved! The last part of that passage in Hebrews essentially says those who reject Jesus Christ have considered the “blood of the covenant” an “unholy thing”. We know as Christians that the blood of Jesus washed our sins away!

    Barbara, you missed my last post was in quotes. That means I didn’t write it. It was actually written by another pastor.

  • “Regardless of your sexual orientation, sexual sin is sin – period”

    No it’s not. That is YOUR interpretation because you are not putting the bible in historical perspective. There are specific sexual acts that are considered sin such as rape and pagan rituals. Using generalizations like that is unwise.

  • I liked how this person described view the difference between the New and Old testaments.

    “What changed was the way God speaks to us. The way he deals with us. Much like a parent will deal with a five year old in one manner, and a 17 year old in another manner, God has dealt with mankind in one way, and now that we have the lessons of the past to remember, he builds upon them and deals with us in a different way. God, nor his purposes have changed, only his method. In the past, God demonstrated his judgment and mercy through the Law in the Old Testament. Those repercussions for sin in the Old Testament were definitely harsh, but in these last days the Bible says, God demonstrates his judgment and mercy through his Son. Listen to the words of Jesus himself: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”-John 3:36 (NIV)

    In the New Testament, Jesus didn’t represent a change in God. Jesus simply took our place and the wrath of God was taken out on him. The punishment the adulteress deserved, that King David deserved, that all of us have earned because of our disobedience to God, was put on Jesus. Isaiah said it best: “We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” –Isaiah 53:6″

  • “My question to you, Giovanna, is why must you insist on pulling others down with YOUR choice?”

    You may believe what you want Barbara that is the beauty to life. That is YOUR perspective of me it raises the question what if you are the one pulling others down? I am sure many thought while they were persecuting Jesus they probably felt totally justified and and believed themselves to be right. Just like the slave owners, and all the others that have persecuted other human beings in history. We know today they were very mistaken.

    Have you ever considered you are the misguided one in need of saving?

  • I refer you to my conversation with Jennifer further up in this chain. Belief includes action – that is, repentance (of all sin).

  • Matt R.,

    You are confused because you are a thinker. It is the greatest use of that unbelievable brain of yours to be able to think for yourself, unlike most of the Christian zombies who parrot what it says in a book and make claims about how the world works for which they have not a shred of evidence. People are of course free to believe what they wish as long as they don’t harm others. But if you could only realize that all of the conflict you suffer stems from this irrational, unfounded, baseless, guilt-imposing fear of a made-up diety that you have become brainwashed to believe wishes you harm because you are you. Remove this irrational fear of god and you are suddenly free to understand your impulses and to understand that you will not cause others harm by simply being yourself.

    Being gay has nothing to do with how much time your father spent with you or whether you spent more time with girls. There are plenty of heterosexual men who could describe similar life experiences or others that are much, much more extreme. Being gay is like any other physical trait–brown eyes, for example. No, you can’t see “gay,” but it comes from your chemistry in exactly the same way that people who are straight have an underlying chemistry that leads them to be attracted to people of the opposite sex. They don’t choose to be straight any more than you chose to be gay. Studies have shown that there are many processes that occur early on that determine both physical characteristics and sexual identity. Did you know, for example, that in animals in which multiple births are common, males that wind up between two females in the womb are much more likely to show female characteristics and behaviors? Exposure to particular hormones early in development helps to set up sexual identity. Given all you’ve written, this scenario is likely to apply to you. It is the result of an absolutely natural process–the same process that led straight people to feel straight–and nothing to be ashamed of.

    I know this is a lot to ask you to think about, but the fact that you write out your thoughts in this way means that you are still searching for understanding and are open to what we have learned about how the world works in the last 2000 years.

    Whatever you decide to believe, be wary of people who condemn you for being who you are. You are, after all, a thinker.

    -Joseph

  • Hey there.

    I have to say thank you to Giovanna and Joseph for making it sound so clear to me.
    I understand what I have to do. And I do believe that being gay is just another characteristic about me just like any other. such as having brown eyes, or black hair.
    Never have I fealt guitly for being who I am. Only when it comes to lusting after others. thats when I feel bad. And thats when I think it becomes sinful. Because I can agree that any sexual sin is sin. I made a promise tonight to God. First of all just cause I’m gay does not give me the freedom to have sex out of marriage. I’m a christian and God’s law still applys to me. In my past all the guys I have encountered or talked to have all only wanted sex from be. But I refused to continue talking to them because of that. So I promised God that from this day forward if I meet a guy I will make sure that is the right guy that God wnts from me, also I will not have sex until I am married. And I ill make sure that this person loves God and is saved, and that we live a Godly life thats approved by the Lord. And we will attend church weekly and be involved in a ministry. And make God our #1 priority. When I look at life that way I dont feel guilty, because how am I causing any harm? I’m not right? Thank you guys for helping me understand that. I feel so much better now. I think the only thing that was bothering me as the fact that sexual sin and lust was still in my heart, and I was lookin at people with lust. And that is wrong. And thats why I fealt so bad. But now that I have removed the sin of sexual act I think I am gonna be ok. And hey I’m praying about whatever God wants from me. And as I live my life praying and God des not bring a guy into my life, then thats how I know that thats what God wants for me. So if he wants be to a life a celibate or single life then I will respect that. But as I continue to pray, and if I do meet a guy and feel good about it then thats how I will kno that thats what he wanted for me. So pretty much its whatever the Lord has in store for me. I won’t stop praying. And please continue to pray for me that I wont think lustfully after others, or that I won’t want to commit any sexual sins before marriage.

    Thank You, and God Bless You All!

    -Matt

  • The truth is and this what I feel!
    But as long as I’m living a life according to the Lord, and I’m not hrting anyone then I feel right about that.
    Someone who is not gay would not understand how I feel? Therefore I can’t really take they’re advice.
    I pray everyday, I go to church. I love God sooooooooo much he is my number 1 priority in life. I’m tryin to get so much closer with him. So how am I harming anyone right?

    All I can say is I will let God direct me in the direction he wants for me, and I will respect that. And I don’t think it is right for me to not be myself, cause if I’m not me then who am I? Right? I kno its a risk I’m takin, but I do feel right about that. Alot of homosexuals are angry with God so they turn away from him. I’m not doing that AT ALL! I will continue my walk with the Lord cause he gives me happiness and safety. And everlasting love. But I am gay, and I cannot deny that, or hide the fact. And whether or not God wants me to be with a guy or not, then thats what I will agree on.

    Thanks for haearing me out guys. I feel more stable now, and corrected!

    I feel God has spoken to me with this conclusion. Sexual sin is SIN. I am gonna live a homosexual life having sex. And when sex is viloated and perverted thats when it becomes wrong.

    But if I’m homosexual, and not living an indecent sexual life, then I think thats ok…and i’m gonna go with my heart on this one. But if at that I still feel guitly and bad, then I will know what to do ;)

    Hope everyone is well :) God Bless You!!!

    -matt

  • Matt,

    Do not be easily deceived. Whether homosexual or not, it is our actions that will be judged by God.

    Paul plainly tells us in I Corinthians 6:9: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homoxexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

    Again, he says in I Cor. 6:18: “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

    Do not be unwise and seek those who will mislead you with empty words and deceptions because you somehow want to find a way that justifies your behavior. Keep yourself pure before the Lord. Hold on to your salvation with everything you’ve got. There are those who will deceive you into thinking that you are saved on the basis of faith alone, but faith requires action – working towards holiness to perfection for the coming of our Lord for His bride. Do not risk Christ saying to you “I never knew you”. Christ said “If you will love me you will keep my commands”. Faith in Him is essential. What follows is that we allow Him to be the King in our lives. We no longer are servants of the flesh, but servants of the Lord.

    A spurious faith would be when we desire Christ only as a Priest to procure pardon and peace, but not as a Prophet to instruct us or as a King to rule over us. Also if we desire to be saved from the punishment of sin, but not from sin itself.

    Christ Himself warned: “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

    I pray that you will reconsider your decision and keep yourself pure before the Lord in anticipation of His coming and finding you blameless.

    God bless you,
    Barbara

  • nathan colquhoun

    As long as you don’t become the older son in the story, where you are so upset about God’s acceptance that you refuse to party with us in the house. Then I’m fine. Hold your beliefs, but don’t lay down barriers for acceptance, and we’re all good.

  • Hey Matt R,

    I sent you a message on FB, but wanted to say that you should maybe seek out a group of gay affirming Christians rather than places like this. Anthony Venn Brown is someone you may want to Google. He has some really good resources.

    All the best to you.

  • Pastor, totally agree. Saw your recent interview on LKL and just wanted to say..THANK YOU. Thank you so much for standing unwaveringly on the Truth.

  • Hey guys thanks again!
    This is what it feels lik

    But the truth is in the end I think that is gonna come down to me in the lord. Honestly I just want to do whats right, and what makeI God happy I don’t want to dissapoint him. I know I will eventually get to that place where I can worship my Lord non stop, and just be happy through him.

    I just need to get rif of these thoughts I get…these sexual thoughts, cause thats what breaks me. Although I have not acted upon them, I still think lustfully sometimes, and thats wrong! You know sometimes I think that maybe I’m just sexually attracted to guys!!! what if? I mean I can see myself with a girl, I just dont see the sex part. But its like with guys its always sexual thoughts. Which means maybe the devil is just putting that in my head to think like that right?
    Oh I just need to find that deeper bond with Gos so I can think more of him, and his morals, than my own fleshful thoughts.

    Just continue to pray for me!

    Thanks

  • You know I’m soooooooo super excited about the Lords return. I know that we should’nt run from our problems, or avoid them…but the truth is if God came it would save me from all tha despair, or hardship I would have to go through my whole life. I hope Jesus return soon!

    How soon do you guys think till he return? I know nobody know the day or hour…but the signs are all around us right?

    Ah thinkin of that day does get me really excited, and it takes my mind of of other stuff :)

    Well God Bless You All!!!

    -Love Matt

  • “Paul plainly tells us in I Corinthians 6:9: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homoxexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.””

    Did Paul really say that Beth? The text that I have states:

    “”Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.””

    You have to notice that homosexuality is not part of that verse.

    This text:

    “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

    You do realize this is talking about sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other. This can be for both heterosexual and homosexuality. That is why when two people come together they have to be committed to each other through God.

    “Christ Himself warned: “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

    You have to wonder about all the Christian slave owners if they felt the same way when other Christians were trying to show that slavery was wrong. It’s strange how that works huh? That for a very long time people thought they were interpreting what God was trying to say only to come find out through others that persecuting another group is not ok. Then the interpretation of the text regarding slavery was changed by putting that part of the bible in historical perspective. One of the basic commandments Jesus gave us is love your neighbor as yourself. History has shown persecuting others is not ok.

  • Matt, I am sure many thought during Hitler’s time and the world wars that the Lord would return. Even now when we are in WWIII many are thinking that. I would recommend to keep your faith, live your life as Jesus would want you too by making this as beautiful and loving world while we are here. If he comes he comes but if it doesn’t during your life time then at least you walked your life in truth faith and love.

    Be good, continue to reach out and help others, love God, make sure you are saved and others who believe as you do will come into your life. Give this issue to God, release it and let him show you the way. He will bring the people who need to help give you the correct guidance to you. Until then trust in Jesus and share his love with others. It will always work out in the end. Peace be with you.

  • What I find so hypocritical is that the exhortation against same-sex marriage is essentially a condemnation of love. How is this position defensible?

  • “Did Paul really say that Beth? The text that I have states: ”

    My apologies to Beth that was suppose to be addressed to Barbara.

  • Preached Sunday, February 20, 2000, at the Des Moines United Methodist Church, Des Moines, Washington

    Text: “I am about to do a new thing.” –Isaiah 43:19

    See also: “I was wrong,” Bishop Says

    Religion has never been known as a force at the cutting edge of doing new things. Avant garde has not been a phrase used to describe the church throughout history. Rather, the church is usually perceived as a conserving force, seeking to retain the traditional values which have come from the past.

    This is shown in the respect and honor we give the Holy Bible, a document written several millennia ago. It is seen in the ancient customs of Orthodox Christians, from time honored liturgies to the unchanging clerical vestments of its clergy. Islam thrives on ancient practices such as daily prayers of its people, as five times each day they face toward Mecca. Thousand-year-old statues of the Buddha remain powerful symbols for Buddhists. In Christianity, ancient creeds are recited from week to week in churches around the world.

    All of this is good–there is truth and value at the center of religious faith which is unchanging and ought to be honored and revered. John Wesley recognized this in placing tradition as one of four guidelines for us, along with scripture, experience and reason.

    But our scripture lesson for today reminds us that God is ever ready to do a new thing. It further reminds us that the God we worship is not a static God, capable only of speaking to us from two, three or four thousand years ago. Rather, God is living, alive in this moment, revealing new truth to us here, now, in this year of our Lord 2000.

    God is revealing new truth in many areas of life. One which is increasingly clear is that He is speaking to us in the issue of homosexuality.

    I am aware that many people are uncomfortable even mentioning this matter and wish it would just go away. I am aware of that, because I have felt exactly the same way.

    I am also aware that it is not the most important issue The United Methodist Church faces. The most important issue is to make disciples, to share the love of God in a world that is hurting. But homosexuality is the most volatile and potentially divisive issue we face, and I believe that God is about to do a new thing among us.

    The new thing that God is doing in our midst right now is to show us that homosexuality is not simply an act or acts of willful disobedience to God’s law and commandments, but it is a state of being. It is an identity that God has given to some of His children. It is who they are.

    How does this assertion–this new thing–stand up against John Wesley’s four tests of Christian truth: scripture, tradition, experience and reason?

    SCRIPTURE: Twice in the Book of Leviticus and once in the Book of Romans are condemnations of homosexual activity. One in Leviticus indicates that death is the penalty for such acts. In truth, there are instances of homosexual acts which should be condemned, even as there are instances of heterosexual acts which should be condemned. I do not doubt that the writer of Leviticus and that St. Paul had good reason to write as they did.

    But when we turn to the scripture, we need to turn to the whole of the scripture. When we do that, the central and overwhelming message is God’s inclusive love for all of humankind.

    Scholars of all opinions have agreed that one verse of scripture is truly the “gospel in a nutshell”– the beloved John 3:16: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life (NRSV).”

    The overwhelming love of God in Christ sweeps some specific prohibitions away, even though they are in the Bible. Do you believe that? Anyone here divorced? Jesus ruled out almost all divorce. Anyone here a woman? Well, Paul didn’t rule you out, but he ruled you out of speaking in church. Anybody here eat pork? Specifically prohibited!

    Look, the sovereign message of the Bible is God’s redeeming, all-powerful love that overrides all else, and places specific prohibitions in the context of the time and place and situation in which they were written.

    TRADITION: We remember Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof singing, “Tradition.” Regarding homosexuality, it is not so much that tradition has been actively against it, but that tradition has been actively covering it up. The tradition is that it is a taboo subject–shrouded in mystery–unspeakable–unmentionable–a subject to be crammed down into the nether regions of our consciousness and forgotten. As a consequence, our real tradition is ignorance. So to that extent, church tradition doesn’t help much.

    In another way, however, we have a long tradition of change. Some 150 years ago, in many of our churches, Methodists believed slavery was scriptural and ordained by God. Until 1920, The Methodist Church in its Discipline prohibited (or tried to prohibit) “dancing, theater-going, and card-playing.” But we have a long, long tradition of finally sorting out what is truly important over what is either incorrect or only marginally important. In the long run, we have always been able to discern when God is doing a new thing in our midst. This capacity to change is among the noblest of our traditions.

    EXPERIENCE: Of all the 4 tests of Christian truth, experience is in some ways the deepest and most far-reaching. It is the thing that can move us when nothing else can.

    John Wesley was an academic, legalistic, guilt-ridden and slightly repulsive Anglican priest before he experienced the love of God in his heart of hearts–before his heart, as he wrote, was “strangely warmed.” It turned his life around. It made the difference between his ending up a forgotten cleric of the Church of England and what he is–a man remembered, respected and followed by millions, one of the great spiritual fathers of the human race.

    What is the role of experience in the issue we speak of today? It is the personal encounter with the anguish, the pain, the hurt, the suffering, the despair which harsh and judgmental attitudes can have on persons of homosexual orientation.

    How does this encounter come about? One way is when parents realize that their child is a person of homosexual orientation. They share intensely and intimately in the struggle, perhaps the denial, often the anguish, but ultimately the acceptance of the child whom they bore and whom they love. It is little wonder that such parents gather together with others in groups such as PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) to bring about understanding and change. For they have experienced first-hand some of the deep, deep hurt that accompanies this issue in our church and in our society.

    In my own case, based on my limited understanding, I went along with the prevailing view, although never including any hatred. I said to myself, “After all, God created men and women different, complementary to one another physically and perhaps emotionally. From my viewpoint as a heterosexual person, heterosexuality must be what God expects of all His creation.” It was just common sense to me.

    I was wrong. It was experience that showed me I was wrong.

    Actually, several experiences were at work. A year ago, when Bishop Joseph Sprague of Illinois asked me to come and preside over a church trial, experience made its compelling points with me. The Reverend Gregory Dell was pastor of the Broadway United Methodist Church in Chicago, a congregation made up of about 40% gay and lesbian persons, situated in a community of similar makeup. Under the law of our denomination, Reverend Dell was charged with “disobedience to the order and discipline of The United Methodist Church,” for conducting a service of holy union for two members of his congregation, two gay men.

    These two men were active in their church as ushers, finance committee members, and regular participants. They had been living as partners for several years, but had been having trouble in their relationship. They came seeking spiritual counsel from their pastor, and wanted to have some kind of service of prayer or blessing of their commitment. They felt it would strengthen them and make them better partners. Reverend Dell agreed to conduct a small, informal service, which took place in September of 1998.

    The facts of the case were never contested. For conducting this service, the trial court found him guilty and suspended him from the exercise of ministry. Ecclesiastically speaking, the decision was correct. As I understand the Spirit of God, it was wrong.

    For two long days I watched this trial of a dedicated, energetic, compassionate, caring and able minister, with 30 years of loyal service to our church. This experience, along with other experiences I am sure, caused me to change my mind. I began to see the new thing God is doing.

    REASON: Reason cuts both ways. For a long time, reason told me that God’s creation of male and female ruled out anything but heterosexuality. But reason, enriched by experience, actually told me otherwise.

    I have often taken issue with arguments which equated prejudice against homosexuality with prejudice against race. I took issue because race was clearly a condition one was born with, while homosexuality involved behavior which is subject to human will. Having said that, is it reasonable to believe that God would create some with an orientation toward the same gender, put within them the same strong drive of sexuality which is present in heterosexual persons, and then decree that such a drive is to be absolutely repressed and denied? This not only defies reason, but is cruel, unfeeling and arbitrary–qualities foreign to God as we know Him in Jesus Christ. Reason supports a belief that God is in the process of doing a new thing.

    At the trial of Gregory Dell, the two men who were the participants in the service of union appeared as witnesses. On the stand, in response to questions, one man told about his father, a pastor in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, one of the most conservative denominations in America. He asked his father to conduct the holy union service. The father regretfully declined, on the basis of his denomination’s position, yet he attended the service. Afterwards, at the reception, the father led in a public prayer of blessing for his son and his partner.

    Whatever our beliefs about homosexuality, can we as Christians do any less than to affirm the committed relationships of our sisters and brothers in Christ?

    In a few weeks 992 delegates will gather in Cleveland for the General Conference, marking 216 years of our church’s life. These are good people, dedicated United Methodist Christians earnestly seeking God’s will for our church. They have been elected by their fellow clergy and laity from all over the world and entrusted with a heavy responsibility. They will have differing perspectives on this and many issues facing them.

    It is impossible to predict what actions they may take, because the Spirit moves at its own pace– “the wind bloweth where it listeth (John 3:8).” But I believe that if the delegates are listening carefully, above the competing pressures of this group and that, they will hear the still, small voice whisper, “I am doing a new thing,” and they will respond faithfully.

  • Preached Sunday, February 20, 2000, at the Des Moines United Methodist Church, Des Moines, Washington

    Text: “I am about to do a new thing.” –Isaiah 43:19

    Religion has never been known as a force at the cutting edge of doing new things. Avant garde has not been a phrase used to describe the church throughout history. Rather, the church is usually perceived as a conserving force, seeking to retain the traditional values which have come from the past.

    This is shown in the respect and honor we give the Holy Bible, a document written several millennia ago. It is seen in the ancient customs of Orthodox Christians, from time honored liturgies to the unchanging clerical vestments of its clergy. Islam thrives on ancient practices such as daily prayers of its people, as five times each day they face toward Mecca. Thousand-year-old statues of the Buddha remain powerful symbols for Buddhists. In Christianity, ancient creeds are recited from week to week in churches around the world.

    All of this is good–there is truth and value at the center of religious faith which is unchanging and ought to be honored and revered. John Wesley recognized this in placing tradition as one of four guidelines for us, along with scripture, experience and reason.

    But our scripture lesson for today reminds us that God is ever ready to do a new thing. It further reminds us that the God we worship is not a static God, capable only of speaking to us from two, three or four thousand years ago. Rather, God is living, alive in this moment, revealing new truth to us here, now, in this year of our Lord 2000.

    God is revealing new truth in many areas of life. One which is increasingly clear is that He is speaking to us in the issue of homosexuality.

    I am aware that many people are uncomfortable even mentioning this matter and wish it would just go away. I am aware of that, because I have felt exactly the same way.

    I am also aware that it is not the most important issue The United Methodist Church faces. The most important issue is to make disciples, to share the love of God in a world that is hurting. But homosexuality is the most volatile and potentially divisive issue we face, and I believe that God is about to do a new thing among us.

    The new thing that God is doing in our midst right now is to show us that homosexuality is not simply an act or acts of willful disobedience to God’s law and commandments, but it is a state of being. It is an identity that God has given to some of His children. It is who they are.

    How does this assertion–this new thing–stand up against John Wesley’s four tests of Christian truth: scripture, tradition, experience and reason?

    SCRIPTURE: Twice in the Book of Leviticus and once in the Book of Romans are condemnations of homosexual activity. One in Leviticus indicates that death is the penalty for such acts. In truth, there are instances of homosexual acts which should be condemned, even as there are instances of heterosexual acts which should be condemned. I do not doubt that the writer of Leviticus and that St. Paul had good reason to write as they did.

    But when we turn to the scripture, we need to turn to the whole of the scripture. When we do that, the central and overwhelming message is God’s inclusive love for all of humankind.

    Scholars of all opinions have agreed that one verse of scripture is truly the “gospel in a nutshell”– the beloved John 3:16: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life (NRSV).”

    The overwhelming love of God in Christ sweeps some specific prohibitions away, even though they are in the Bible. Do you believe that? Anyone here divorced? Jesus ruled out almost all divorce. Anyone here a woman? Well, Paul didn’t rule you out, but he ruled you out of speaking in church. Anybody here eat pork? Specifically prohibited!

    Look, the sovereign message of the Bible is God’s redeeming, all-powerful love that overrides all else, and places specific prohibitions in the context of the time and place and situation in which they were written.

    TRADITION: We remember Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof singing, “Tradition.” Regarding homosexuality, it is not so much that tradition has been actively against it, but that tradition has been actively covering it up. The tradition is that it is a taboo subject–shrouded in mystery–unspeakable–unmentionable–a subject to be crammed down into the nether regions of our consciousness and forgotten. As a consequence, our real tradition is ignorance. So to that extent, church tradition doesn’t help much.

    In another way, however, we have a long tradition of change. Some 150 years ago, in many of our churches, Methodists believed slavery was scriptural and ordained by God. Until 1920, The Methodist Church in its Discipline prohibited (or tried to prohibit) “dancing, theater-going, and card-playing.” But we have a long, long tradition of finally sorting out what is truly important over what is either incorrect or only marginally important. In the long run, we have always been able to discern when God is doing a new thing in our midst. This capacity to change is among the noblest of our traditions.

    EXPERIENCE: Of all the 4 tests of Christian truth, experience is in some ways the deepest and most far-reaching. It is the thing that can move us when nothing else can.

    John Wesley was an academic, legalistic, guilt-ridden and slightly repulsive Anglican priest before he experienced the love of God in his heart of hearts–before his heart, as he wrote, was “strangely warmed.” It turned his life around. It made the difference between his ending up a forgotten cleric of the Church of England and what he is–a man remembered, respected and followed by millions, one of the great spiritual fathers of the human race.

    What is the role of experience in the issue we speak of today? It is the personal encounter with the anguish, the pain, the hurt, the suffering, the despair which harsh and judgmental attitudes can have on persons of homosexual orientation.

    How does this encounter come about? One way is when parents realize that their child is a person of homosexual orientation. They share intensely and intimately in the struggle, perhaps the denial, often the anguish, but ultimately the acceptance of the child whom they bore and whom they love. It is little wonder that such parents gather together with others in groups such as PFLAG (Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) to bring about understanding and change. For they have experienced first-hand some of the deep, deep hurt that accompanies this issue in our church and in our society.

    In my own case, based on my limited understanding, I went along with the prevailing view, although never including any hatred. I said to myself, “After all, God created men and women different, complementary to one another physically and perhaps emotionally. From my viewpoint as a heterosexual person, heterosexuality must be what God expects of all His creation.” It was just common sense to me.

    I was wrong. It was experience that showed me I was wrong.

    Actually, several experiences were at work. A year ago, when Bishop Joseph Sprague of Illinois asked me to come and preside over a church trial, experience made its compelling points with me. The Reverend Gregory Dell was pastor of the Broadway United Methodist Church in Chicago, a congregation made up of about 40% gay and lesbian persons, situated in a community of similar makeup. Under the law of our denomination, Reverend Dell was charged with “disobedience to the order and discipline of The United Methodist Church,” for conducting a service of holy union for two members of his congregation, two gay men.

    These two men were active in their church as ushers, finance committee members, and regular participants. They had been living as partners for several years, but had been having trouble in their relationship. They came seeking spiritual counsel from their pastor, and wanted to have some kind of service of prayer or blessing of their commitment. They felt it would strengthen them and make them better partners. Reverend Dell agreed to conduct a small, informal service, which took place in September of 1998.

    The facts of the case were never contested. For conducting this service, the trial court found him guilty and suspended him from the exercise of ministry. Ecclesiastically speaking, the decision was correct. As I understand the Spirit of God, it was wrong.
    For two long days I watched this trial of a dedicated, energetic, compassionate, caring and able minister, with 30 years of loyal service to our church. This experience, along with other experiences I am sure, caused me to change my mind. I began to see the new thing God is doing.

    REASON: Reason cuts both ways. For a long time, reason told me that God’s creation of male and female ruled out anything but heterosexuality. But reason, enriched by experience, actually told me otherwise.

    I have often taken issue with arguments which equated prejudice against homosexuality with prejudice against race. I took issue because race was clearly a condition one was born with, while homosexuality involved behavior which is subject to human will. Having said that, is it reasonable to believe that God would create some with an orientation toward the same gender, put within them the same strong drive of sexuality which is present in heterosexual persons, and then decree that such a drive is to be absolutely repressed and denied? This not only defies reason, but is cruel, unfeeling and arbitrary–qualities foreign to God as we know Him in Jesus Christ. Reason supports a belief that God is in the process of doing a new thing.

    At the trial of Gregory Dell, the two men who were the participants in the service of union appeared as witnesses. On the stand, in response to questions, one man told about his father, a pastor in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, one of the most conservative denominations in America. He asked his father to conduct the holy union service. The father regretfully declined, on the basis of his denomination’s position, yet he attended the service. Afterwards, at the reception, the father led in a public prayer of blessing for his son and his partner.

    Whatever our beliefs about homosexuality, can we as Christians do any less than to affirm the committed relationships of our sisters and brothers in Christ?

    In a few weeks 992 delegates will gather in Cleveland for the General Conference, marking 216 years of our church’s life. These are good people, dedicated United Methodist Christians earnestly seeking God’s will for our church. They have been elected by their fellow clergy and laity from all over the world and entrusted with a heavy responsibility. They will have differing perspectives on this and many issues facing them.

    It is impossible to predict what actions they may take, because the Spirit moves at its own pace– “the wind bloweth where it listeth (John 3:8).” But I believe that if the delegates are listening carefully, above the competing pressures of this group and that, they will hear the still, small voice whisper, “I am doing a new thing,” and they will respond faithfully.

  • Regarding Jennifer’s “spiritual advisers”: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

  • Well I have been a fan of hers for years, and when she disappeared there was all kinds of speculation about what had happened. I only wished her a speedy return to what she has done so well. When she returned I was elated, but thought something was off immediately. When I heard the truth of the situation, my heart was broken. The thing is I “know” what it is like to be bound to a deep rooted sin….To cry out day in and day out, to be ready to give up and give in. That is not what God wants, His mercy is so far reaching it is beyond comprehension. I am so thankful for it. So when I heard this I knew Jennifer has given up, I do not know what can be done to bring Her back, except for prayer, and a sympathetic love…None of us are in a position to Judge Her, but we still have to stand firm on this truth that we base our lives….It is wrong it is sin,She has embraced it, instead of Christ. Still there is hope…Lets pray for that….Just a thought

  • Thanks so much for representing our Lord Jesus and his church in such a loving, empathic and yet faithful way. Thank you for not minimizing the responsibility of each follower of Christ to stand against sin in our lives, even if we fail in our attempts to please God.

    In my mind, the question of homosexualtity being a choice or biological is moot. Our behaviour is always a choice.

    I have always loved Jennifer’s music, and prayed for her, sensing that her dissapearance from the public was some kind of struggle with sin in her life. I will continue to pray for her now. I hope that the Lord “undoes her”.

    I say all of this as a sinner who has struggled with immorality for many years, only recently gaining the victory over it. There is hope, and it comes in the form of a hand held out in love, with scars on it’s palm.

    Thanks again Bob.

    Patti O

  • Barbara,

    There you go twisting scripture again. You state:

    “Christ Himself warned: “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.””

    Have you looked at all that He was talking about in that passage (including the verses prior to the one you pick)? Jesus is talking about the religious leaders. He does this many times. Gosh, I wish you’d stop throwing out verses without using them in context.

    You’re like a modern day Pharisee.

    Jesus is coming back for us soon! Human emotions and actions do not matter- belief in the Son is what makes us righteous and decides our destiny.

  • Oh, and for all of you (Barbara) who think that salvation is dependent upon how we act once we claim to be Christians, how about this:

    Pastor Bob says: Jesus + Nothing = Everything!

    Here’s to faith in Jesus!!! It’s the only thing that matters in the end :)

  • I just saw the video of the Larry King interview on Youtube. To be honest, I had never heard of Pastor Bob or Horizon Christian Church. But after watching the clip, I decided to read the original blog. I want to say, thank you for standing up for the truth when so many are compromising! Though it is not politically correct to oppose homosexuality (or premarital sex or dozens of other things), the Bible is clear. I appreciate that some are still willing to declare the truth in a loving, patient, clear way. Thank you!

  • “She has embraced it, instead of Christ”

    This statement is not true. She has demonstrated her love for Christ in her life. This is the one part the bible thumping Christians don’t understand. Homosexuals today are saved through Christ in their hearts, love God, love their partners and communities. Just like heterosexuals do! They live the exact same lives as heterosexuals except their partners are of the same sex. They even have their marriages ordained by ministers before God.

    It’s is because many homosexuals of today are saved through Christ that the passages you all keep trying to use doesn’t fit today’s definition of a homosexual couple!

    Open your eyes and your minds people. I am sure God is not as closed minded as you are trying to make him out to be and neither is Christ’s love.

  • By Jennifer Knapp

    As a young girl, I learned to read music. The scattered black dots on the page, successfully decrypted and performed, began to make more vivid the world around me. I began to discover the private, personal and strange journeys that playing music had to offer. I listened, I sang, I played, and I began to write songs of my own. For me, music has become the tool through which the meditations of my soul find deeper peace and understanding.

    As a young adult, I began to pursue a purposed life of faith centered on the teachings of Jesus. Many would say that I “became” a Christian. Curious, passionate and confounded, I entered my local evangelical Protestant church with a new appreciation for my spiritual self and participated with full fervor. There too, I experienced music as a gift that could draw out the deeper cries of not just my heart, but the hearts of others as well.

    More and more, my spiritual pursuit began to be reflected by the songs I was writing. I laid down the questions of my faith I was too embarrassed to share aloud, or worse, uninvited to speak of openly. The songs I wrote directly pertaining to my faith were warmly greeted and celebrated in my church. Soon I found myself with more invitations to play my little songs. Starting in local churches and humble country sanctuaries, onto summer camps, college campuses and conferences of faith; I didn’t know it, but I was becoming a “Christian artist.”

    Almost exclusively, I was playing in and around churches – Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Episcopalian, Catholic – and some churches that had no recognizable denominational affiliation other than a cross over their door. Where I began thinking that all Christians were alike, I quickly discovered that they were not. They all spoke of Jesus the same, but their practices and traditions, their “do’s and don’ts,” could be vastly different.

    As confounding as this was to me, I learned to respect the houses where I was asked to play, learned to listen a bit more closely, and even more, learned to appreciate the diverse styles and methods with which many people process their spiritual journey. As the invited but alien artist, it often fell upon me to find our commonality, to sing of what we could mutually share and celebrate.

    Through trial and error, offense and blessing, I learned that not even a Christian could be solely judged by his cover. Blundering assumptions about how I thought one church might believe, or even how one single congregant among them might believe, only left me an agent of offense. I began to recognize the intense personal nature of each individual’s specific spiritual journey. I began to see the powerful protection a community of faith could be for the fragile and broken. I also have seen the tragic emotional and spiritual devastation brought upon those who sought only compassion and were greeted with condemnation in times of utmost vulnerability.

    All this I have seen, when I just wanted to play music. I just wanted to explore my faith. I simply wanted to meet others, converse, encourage and learn about how to be … well, a meaningful person. I have definitely found myself in the midst of an adventure I would have never imagined or called for.

    This was the world I found myself in when I realized I was gay. After years of subtle comments, wary glances and leading encouragement to get married and have babies, I was fully aware that I had a foot in the door of some houses that were about to be slammed. At the same time, I had experienced years of rich and fulfilling dialogue with many people of faith who taught me the soft landings of compassion. Still, it was hard not to respond to the fear. I questioned whether my faith had betrayed me, or I if had a betrayed my faith. I wondered if music was a ruse and could unite no one.

    Like wistful balloons loosed to the wind, I was about to release both faith and music, but I could not release what I had learned.

    Where music had led me to very strange lands, full of people with differing faith practices, cultural expectations, gender roles and more … it had taught me to listen. Through the torrent of life’s confusion and seeming incongruities, there is a spirit, a song, that if we strain hard enough, we can hear. What we can hear, when we listen, is how we are much the same.

    From time to time, a song catches our ear and we follow it outside of our usual haunts. We stumble out of our chosen sanctuaries and toward the source of sound that seems to reveal our heart’s longing. It is only when we get there that we can see the diversity of the many who were called by the same tune. Will we be encouraged to see we are not alone? Shamed that we do not want to share it with others differing from ourselves? Or will we simply listen?

  • Patti: look up the word moot.
    When did you “choose” to be straight?

  • This topic always makes me wonder if the people who want to ALWAYS pay such close attention to scriptures on homosexuality ever read the scriptures where Jesus says that if you are married, you are not allowed to divorce and remarry. He says if you remarry it can only be to the person you were married to the first time. Or if they pay attention to the scriptures that are VERY clear on ways that believers are to gain healing. That is by calling for the elders to lay hands on and pray for them and they shall be healed. And what about the scriptures on gluttony? Are any of these judgmental people participating in gluttony? Are any of the people who are judging homosexuals here actually living out those scriptures? We all pick and choose people. And as soon as we realize that we ALL do it, the better off we as children of God will be as well as all others that we come into contact with.
    Let’s try loving mercy, doing justice, and walking humbly with our God.

  • Bob,
    You have made quite the stance, and public reaction is mixed with strong agreements and disagreements. My wife and I believe you are doing a great job speaking the truth seasoned with salt, and you are certainly stirring up the waters! I glanced through much of the responses on the youtube Larry King video and couldn’t believe all the name calling and fierce reactions to your words in the interview. Hope you continue to speak graciously yet truthfully. Have you read Phillip Yancey’s “What’s so Amazing about Grace?” Read chapter 13, perhaps it will encourage you. Also, google for a guy named Chris Yuan, a homosexual who gave his life to Christ and made “Christ the center of his life” (as you put it so well). He is a speaker who speaks out much on this issue and his journey from that lifestyle. Hope your commitment to God’s Words stands strong!
    billy

  • Matt,

    Your first posting was compelling heartfelt and beautifully honest. I know what it is to be caught in sexual sin and feel that there is no way out. To pray to God over and over and not be able to break out of it. I know what it is to try again and again and to fail again and again. For over 20 years I lived like this unhappy, full of shame, and trying to justify my choices. The world of course was saying what I wanted to hear and everyone was doing it so it must be ok… Well then why did I feel so empty, used and disposable? It’s because as long as I was in bondage to sexual sin I was not truly in relationship with my Father God. There is a reason God tells us not to do certain things and it is because they hurt us…deeply! God uses the Holy Spirit to convict us so that we can return back to relationship with him. Not to shame us or condemn us. I encourage you not to settle for less than Gods very best for you and I know that Gods best does not include anything that separates you from Him and sin separates you from Him. When we knowingly and intentionally sin it creates a distance and God cannot bless us as he wants to. I know this to be fact I tried to do it the world’s way and it made me want to literally curl up into a ball and die.
    Please don’t buy into the lies that this sin won’t hurt you….they are lies and they are meant to keep you in bondage. I sincerely want you to find the freedom I have. It has been 4 years since I was a slave to my sexual sin…Now I live in glorious freedom. Make no mistake it was hard fought and it took time and determination but above all it took the infilling of the Holy Spirit. I had to come to the end of myself to the point that I knew that I would rather die than go on living the way I had been because it was so incredibly painfull, damaging and destructive to my soul. It was then that I said to God ok I give… whatever you have for me has to be better than my way because I knew where doing it my way got me, So I stopped trying and let God’s healing begin and what I thought was impossible became a beautiful reality.
    Matt Jesus loves you and his heart breaks over your pain and your loneliness. Please find someone to talk to that does not have an ulterror motive and their only agenda is in helping you find restoration and true peace which only comes from the Holy Spirit. This means stay away from those with a religious spirit and stay away from those who want to justify sin. People who want to justify sin are those caught in it and are trying to make themselves feel better by getting others to join them. Ever heard the saying misery loves company? Well so does sin.
    And you are right Jesus is coming back soon. There are too many prophecies being fulfilled to think otherwise. May God bless you and keep you safe and… May the God of hope fill you with all Joy and Peace as you trust in Him that you may overflow with Hope through the power of the Holy Spirit. Rom 15:13. I will be praying for you.

    In love
    Your sister in Christ.

  • Than you soooooooo much Shawn!

    Tha really helped me to think cleare!
    I appriciate you. God Bless You!!!

    -Matt

  • Matt,

    I have been praying for you and there are a few things that your heavenly Father wants you to know.
    So this is from God…Matt you are my son whom I love dearly. I have been with you since your mothers womb. I know that you feel that I have abandoned you but I have not. My son, my beloved son. Dont you know that the reason you are so sensitive is because you have much of My heart in you. You have the heart of David who pursued Me. Matthew you were named and not by mistake because you are near and dear to me just as the apostle. My heart grieves for your pain it is so incredibly deep. My son I came that you might have life and life abundantly…Yes you. My promise to you is that when you seek Me you WILL find Me, when you seek me with all your heart I will be found by you…and you have such an amazing heart. I see your heart.

    God.
    Jeremiah 29:11-14

    Matt
    I hope this blesses you as I am just being obedient.

    In love,
    Your sister in Christ.

  • Hello Shawn.

    Than you so much for that. It made me cry. I really heard the Lord speaking to me when I read that, and I’ve never fealt so ouched in my life. That meant so much. I know that thats what he really thinks of me. I know I must do the riight thing so that I can live eternally with him. All I want to do is be close tih God, and serve him, and be happy once again. And i believe in myself. Please continue the prayer as it is greatly approciated!

    Your Brother in Christ,
    -Matt

  • Matt, you are succumbing to a fraud. Shawn has no more standing to speak for your god than you do. Listen to yourself and how your spirituality speaks through you, not through some other person. Only you know who you are, and only you know your relationship to Him.

  • I am wondering if a Christian is living in almost a million dollar home with 5 bed rooms, 2.5 half baths and 3,700 square feet would you consider that to be sinning?

    “There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.” Deuteronomy 15:11

  • Claude in SoCal

    Matt: is Shawn truly is speaking for God (which she is not) because God uses his word. The Bible, his Holy Spirit & prayer from you to talk to him. I’ve seen this to many times to count. Calvary Chapel/Horizion/Harvest or any other within the Calvary Chapel Fellowship of Churches. They claim they want you to be open for whatever God wants from you, Then they step in & say what they want to say & say it is from God.
    That is what I call Jonestown, They haven’t given you the cool-aid yet. But you better get ready to run.
    Shawn is using your emotions against you to make you belive what she claims to be God is true?
    God knows your name, address, phone number, email & every hair on your head. Shawn is not God, last time I checked.

  • It’s always a bit confusing when Christians start going at each other. Sure, Shawn goofed big time by speaking as if she knew what was in the mind of your god, but wasn’t she saying, Claude, what you more or less believe is there too? That Matt ought to seek him? Same thing for Emma and Barbara. Aren’t you guys on the same team?

  • Claude in SoCal

    Joseph, I don’t agree at all with Shawn. Since when is God put to the test thru someone elses word & claiming to say this is God speaking thru me. The Mormons (LDS) , JW’s & The Way International do those things & control peoples lives, by the way those are cults. So, I’m not even close to anyone who claims to be speak for God & then put flowery Christian lingo to make sound right.
    I’ll pass.

  • Matt R.

    I agree with Shawn that God can break you free from sexual sin. Homosexual practices ARE sin! Please do not think that I am saying this to condemn b/c I am not. Gods word says that if anyone is claiming to be your brother and they are sinning that they need to be told so thats what im doing. There is always order to what God does and says.

    God loves that you hate your sin, thats where you start. You’ve come before Him broken, laid down your pride. God loves that. Now you have a battle. The only way you can win this battle is to go through the tough times of crying yourself to sleep at night and calling out to the Lord. He knows that its hard, but He is with you. Another weapon you have is Gods word. STAY IN IT! Commit scriptures to memory.

    I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. ~1 Corinthians 9:27~

    This one is my husbands favorite when he struggles with sexual temptation (see, you dont have to be battling homosexuality to struggle with sexual sin!)

    Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. ~1 Corinthians 10:12-13~

    That scripture to me is so amazing! God is saying that you are not a freak or by yourself struggling with these things. He said that these temptations are common! AND that He will help you and provide a way out.

    You know, when Adam and Eve sinned it brought sin to the world. The bible says that we are ALL born with a sin nature. So if we are all born with a sin nature then that means we are born with sinful desires too right? So many people will tell you that you were born this way and God would not have made you that way if it was sinful. When they tell you that, you tell yourself this ” Yes, I was born with a sin nature because Adam and Eve fell, but I will not let that sin nature rule me”.

    I encourage you to stay in the word. Dont watch ungodly shows or movies. Listen to as much worship music as you can. I recommend substituting T.V. time with sermons at mikebickle.org. You can listen to them free! I listen to them frequently and he is all about teaching the word of God. God speaks through him and he is the least condemning pastor I’ve ever listened to. Go to the international house of prayers website and ramps website and take advatage of there music resources. You have to make sacrifices when you want to follow got and give your life to Him. I replaced ALL of the ungodly music I listened to with music from ramp and International house of prayer and Jesus culture and others. It was hard. I cant begin to tell you how hard, but God was faithful. He was with me every step of the way. He has been with my husband every step of the way with his battle.

    You are not alone, and the enemy of your soul wants you to believe that you are. He wants you to be ashamed and live in that shame. The fact is, Jesus was already victorious and we just have to trust Him till the end. Hang on to Gods word above anything else. Get as much sound teaching from it that you can, but most of all ask the Holy Spirit to be your main teacher. I will be praying for you!

    For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
    Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
    but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.
    For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day! ~2 Timothy 1:7-12~

    I will be in prayer for you! You can do this! Remember, in the end you are victorious through Christ and you will be with Him for eternity. I may never see you in this life, but I’ll see you there!!

  • Hey guys…well I see it as Shawn just caring for me. And that alone means the world to me. You know to have someone who I don’t know actaully care about me.

    It’s funnt cause I see so may gay people happy, and living theyre life happily not feeling that being gay is wrong.

    But for me its likfe pure confusion. What I care about so much is whats gonna heppen to me after I die…will I go to heaven or hell. Thats concerns me so much. I don’t want to be lied to. But I don’t want to regret a life that I could have had either. I truly believe God is real, and I know he cares about me. I understand that the bible speaks against homosexuality….but I feel as if it does’nt speak of the causes or the emotions and effects on it. It’s so hard to let go of homosexuality…I feelas if I’m letting go of the one thing that made me stand out from everyone else, the thing that made me unique. After all that I went through in my life cause of the fact that I was gay, I finally learned to be comfortable and okay with it…and now I have to let go of it for the safety of myself. To me that does’nt seem right. I mean I know God speaks that it is wrong, but thats what makes me ME! I feel like I’m gonna end up going crazy. I want more info on homosexuality…from God though…not from people! Cause anyone can say anything…but are they right? Idk what to do?

    Joseph and Claud in SoCal do you guys have facebook? We should keep in contact there, or you guys should give me your number. I would like to chat in a private conversation, cause I have questions. If thats cool with you guys.

    I’m a sweet and kind boy. I’m not harming anyone else! Yes I’m gay…but I have not yet acted upon it recently. Cause Idk if I should. What if I dies while I was gay and went to hell? That frightens me…but then what if I don’t and everything was okay and my sexuality wasnt as big of a deal as I thought it was. I just don’t know what to think. I try and try to get close to God, but letting go of the one hign that makes me special is hard to do. I feel like I’m lying to myself.

    GOD I NEED YOU TO ANSWER ME…SHOW ME WHAT I MUST DO! PLEASE.

    -matt r

  • Hey Matt R.

    I actually left a comment for you yesterday and it hasnt gone thru yet so ill go ahead and leave another. My husband and I have been married about 10 years now and he struggles with sexual sin as well. It is not homosexuality but if you read you bible God lumps all the sins together. No one is worse than the other. Sin is sin in His eyes and He hates all of it. He loves the sinner enough to send His Son to die on the cross for us but He hates our sin. Yours, mine, my husbands. All of it.

    So what do we do when we feel like its right? When we feel like we were born this way. Well the first thing you do is realize yes, I was born this way because we are ALL born with a sin nature. It is natural for a child to lie immediatly when asked did they break something b/c we are all born into sin. Some of us struggle more with one sin and not so much with another but its still something we are born into since Adam and Eve chose to disobey God.

    Next step is to realize that God created you to love Him and to be loved by Him, so He’s not gonna leave you hangin. He left you His Word (the bible) which you need to be in constantly. Commit scriptures to memory and even tho the times when you have cried yourself to sleep at night have been hard for you, that kind of brokeness is what it takes to get closer to the Father. (believe me, my husband and I have gone thru some broken times just like that).

    ~2 Corinthians 12:9 and He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.~

    Dont be discouraged when you feel weak. It is clear in scripture that that is when the power of God is gonna work in your life!

    I encourage you to begin to break away from the things of this world and start to hold on the Jesus and Jesus alone. Seek all the sound teaching that you can get. I encourage you to replace tv time with sermons by Mike Bickle at mikebickle.org. they are free to listen to online. And he has a lot of end times teachings that are really encouraging. He has a lot of teachings that are about the millenial reign of Christ and our place in that. These sermons are SO encouraging and not condemning at all and have helped my husband and I so much. The international house of prayer website is a great resource to buy worship music. Also ramps website and Jesus culture. I HIGHLY encourage you to replace any ungodly music with worship from these websites. They are about all we listen to right now and believe me it helps.

    Most of all I say read your bible and pray and listen for the Lord speak. Memorize scriptures such as this:

    ~1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.~

    Or this one which is one of my husbands favorites:

    ~1 Corinthians 10:12-13 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.!

    What an amazing promise from you Father God! He is there for you, He knows how you feel and He is helping you. He loves you so dont feel condemned when you mess up. Just repent and pick yourself back up and remember that God is not condemning you. He is helping you to overcome this thing. Remember:

    ~John 3:17 For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.~

    So remember, yes, homosexuality is a sin, but God is not condemning you because you feel this way but He is helping you to overcome it so that when you are free, you will be there to help so many others with your awesome testimony of deliverance.

    If you would like me to contact you on facebook I would be glad to and I know my husband would be happy to tell you his testimony. God is good. Read His word. Hang on to His promises! God bless!

  • why wont my comments post?

  • Claude in SoCal

    Matt: Honestly, what you need to do is to talk to God. Instead of talking to people. Man will fail you. God’s word the Bible will not. The way you talk to us or your friends is the way you talk to God. I have a friend that is dealing with the same issue you are dealing with. Homosexuality. I’ll tell you what I told him. He has enough knowledge concerning the Bible & the choices he makes. You don’t have to answer to me? You will have to answer to God. So, I shared with him, to journal his thoughts, questions & any other things that are on his mind. Read, pray & study the Bible. Ask God to speak to you. God already knows your name & everything going on in your life. God isn’t going to force you to do anything you will not want to do.
    The true & living God I belive & serve is big enough to meet your needs. I’m not going to be like every other Christian to tell you God told me to tell you. God speaks to you thru the Bible & his word is more sure than man’s. God will show you the answer. But the question is will you obey once he gives you your answer. I don’t need Facebook or anything like that. Everything I will share with you can be here.

  • am I able to post yet?

  • Matt maybe you should read this article. (Don’t forget to put the www in front of it.)

    zuberfowler.com/seeking.html

    It’s a long but it comes from someone who had struggled like you.

  • Pastor Bob, I just wanted to say you were Jesus with skin on. I was so glad to hear your heart speaking HIS truth, and not to just your community. Jewels in His Crown. I think when our hearts grieve over the things that make our Father’s heart ache, then we are on the right track. My heart aches. I have no doubt you will hear, ‘Well done my good and faithful servant.’

    Vickie

  • This (along with other articles if very concerning.. I am always overwhelmed at how much focus is put on homosexually but yet NEVER have I heard the topic of someone like myself mentioned in any mainstream Christian Press…

    I am not a homosexual.. because that would take me having relationship with someone with the exact some sexual situation I have… but I am inner sexed.. meaning I was born with male and female genitals and internal organs. My parents did not believe God makes me mistakes and thus raised me the best the could nurturing any tendencies male or female that may arise.. but the truth of the matter is.. I am NOT a full male nor am I a full female.. and I do not feel like either 100% of the time.. Inner sexed children are born 1 out of 2000 and in many different ways.. some aren’t like me and do not have everything of both.. some are just males born with ovaries or females born with testicles… but many ARE born with my situation..

    And this is a fact of life.. I do NOT consider myself deformed.. there were no abnormalities surrounding my conception or birth.. I was perfectly healthy in everyway..but I consider myself to be a close to heaven as we can get.. because my ideal of heaven is that when we get there NONE of us will have genitals and we will all be spirit which is what resides in us.. But I just SHUTTER at how situations like mine are not addressed in church.. when we are basically living proof God doesn’t NOT care about what you have going on with your body.. but who you are.. Thus LOVE is not bound by body… nor should it be..

    I have a problem with promiscuity regardless of the sexual orientation.. but I think all of you preaching against homosexuality should REALLY take a moment to think about.. what you don’t KNOW.. and that’s the fact that people and situations are NOT black and white..

  • 1Peter 4: 12Beloved, do not be amazed and bewildered at the fiery ordeal which is taking place to test your quality, as though something strange (unusual and alien to you and your position) were befalling you. 13But insofar as you are sharing Christ’s sufferings, rejoice, so that when His glory [full of radiance and splendor] is revealed, you may also rejoice with triumph [exultantly].
    14If you are censured and suffer abuse [because you bear] the name of Christ, blessed [are you--happy, fortunate, [h]to be envied, [i]with life-joy, and satisfaction in God’s favor and salvation, regardless of your outward condition], because the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of God, is resting upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.(B)

    15But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or any sort of criminal, or as a mischief-maker (a meddler) in the affairs of others [infringing on their rights].

    16But if [one is ill-treated and suffers] as a Christian [which he is contemptuously called], let him not be ashamed, but give glory to God that he is [deemed worthy to suffer] in this name.

    17For the time [has arrived] for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will [be] the end of those who do not respect or believe or obey the good news (the Gospel) of God?

    18And if the righteous are barely saved, what will become of the godless and wicked?(C)

    19Therefore, those who are ill-treated and suffer in accordance with God’s will must do right and commit their souls [in charge as a deposit] to the One Who created [them] and will never fail [them].

    Thank you for standing for the truth!!!!

  • thank you so much for standning for the truth and i am blessed to hear you speak bravely on larry king.

  • Dear Pastor Bob,

    Thank you for speaking up for truth on Larry King live. You did exactly what the apostle Paul would have done and in a spirit of gentleness in clearly stating that Ms. Knapp made the choice to live in sin regarding her homosexual lifestyle. the Bible states that in the last days there will be a falling away and we are seeing it now. Non-believers don’t fall away–Christians do. Jesus said something very interesting in the Book Revelation 22: vs. 11 “Let the one who is doing wrong continue to do wrong; the one who is vile, continue to be vile; the one who is good, continue to do good; and the one who is holy, continue in holiness.”

  • Hi Pastor BOB,
    I’m a filipino christian who is currently employed in california.I always listen to your radio program on my way to work in the afternoon.I praise GOD for your appearance at Larry King’s show.My husband and I will keep on praying for you.God bless you always.

  • As I read these blogs I see many uneducated people who are just shooting of at the mouth and going by whatever their Pastor says.

    Bob I listened to you on Larry King. You are a very knowledgeable man when it comes to the bible but I felt that it was very hard for you when you tried to be compassionate about the gays. You say you love them but what does love really mean to you? A word?.. because that is what the bible has called you to do? Do you value human beings like jesus did? I am sorry I did not feel that from you at all but only God knows the heart as you say.

    I don’t begin to understand all about homosexuality but when you have been hit in the face with it as our family have you do begin to search deeper other than the church views. God does meet you in your circumstances. I believe that so much and he takes those circumstances and makes you more humble. Amen to that!.I think we all have our own secrets of prejudice in our heart and God knows the heart. If you break one commandment you are guilty of breaking them all. Please love your neighbour as yourself and leave the rest to God! No one is above Him.

  • Claude in SoCal

    The message our nation needs is this one & Charles Stanley is the only one giving it.
    When will the body of Christ & the church wake up??
    http://www.intouch.org/broadcast/this-week-on-tv

  • http://www.godtube.com/featured/video/adam-hood-rewind&utm_source=newsletter070510&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklytopvideos

    hope this link works….no debating here, folks! There is power in His name! Amazing!

    Welcome home Adam!

  • Great link Cynthia! Thanks for posting it!

    Matt,

    You should click on Cynthia’s link, I think you will find Adam’s testimony very inspirational.

    There is power in His name! If you want it, you can have it!

  • For those that do not have blinders on consider the other side of the argument.

    http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian

    This debate will go on until Christians come together with love, open to the truth, open to understanding by recognizing the APA has even stated that homosexuality is not what people were stating in the past. There is not cure, because being gay is not a choice.

    Matt, love yourself for who you are, put God first show him your love for him and the Holy Spirit will bring you to the truth.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Of course you going to block me again. Not surprising. Because of my posting of Charles Stanley’s message. Because only Calvary Chapel/Horizon/Harvest & the Calvary Chapel of fellowship of Churches have all the answers.
    So when I listen to KWVE 107.9FM & the Pastors on their radio programs say, we are all the Body of Christ & every member serves a function. But this blog proves my point over & over. You need to follow Calvary Chapel Distictives or you aren’t part of the Body.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Hey Matt: Like I’ve said before & I will it again. I follow the rules of this blog & I tried to post webpages that you could go to & read info on what the Bible say on the issues presented. But they will not let me. I want to give you Biblical answers, yet this blog censors me from doing that.
    It is alright for everyone else.
    1st they get mad that I cut & paste.
    2nd so I follow there rules & I still can’t place the links to page for you to read the info yourself.
    So, I would really question if they really do care? Because if they block me from giving you Biblical answers, then I belive they will do more harm than good to you, since they claim they are looking out for you & all Homosexuals.
    All I wanted was to provide answers & they block them from being published.
    So, I belive your blood is now on their hands. & maybe they will pull a Pilate & blame me.

  • Did anyone read this article?

    My Take: Why Christians are jerks online

    Put simply, I want to talk about why sometimes we Christians are jerks online.

    Much like “Christian hate mail,” being a “Jerk Christian” defies logic. We serve a loving God. We follow a Christ who very plainly told us what to do. In Matthew 22 someone asks Jesus, “What is the most important commandment?” The answer is simple:

    “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

    There’s no confusion about that. No smoke monster. No mystical wisdom that must be found on a mountain peak after growing a ZZ Top-worthy beard. Someone asks Christ what matters and the second thing is “Loving your neighbor as yourself.”

    So then why are there so many hateful Christian blogs? Why do Christians write bitter messages on Twitter? Why do we send hate mail?

    I think there are two reasons Christians are jerks online.

    The business traveler approach.

    It’s unfortunately not that uncommon for business travelers to get in trouble when they’re on the road. With a “What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas” approach they tend to do things they would never do at home. “The rules don’t apply here. I’m a different person. This is ‘road me,’ not ‘home me.’” I believe sometimes Christians approach the Internet the same way. The rules of “real life” don’t count. Sure, I have to love my neighbor, but are people on Facebook my neighbor? The Internet doesn’t “count.” These are just words. Surely I can throw a missile of hate at someone on Twitter. And when we buy into this logic, we develop an unloving, anything goes, whatever happens online stays online mentality. We become two different people, “Offline Christian” and “Online Christian.” And we become jerks.

    Room Cleaning Christianity

    Why do Christians argue about drinking beer or why the tankini is the least slutty of all bathing garments? I think it’s because we sometimes practice “Room Cleaning Christianity.” Think of it like college. When you’ve got a final paper due Monday, you will be amazed at how energetic your desire is to clean your room. You will scrub tile with a slow toothbrush if it means avoiding the bigger, more difficult work of writing your paper. The same thing happens with Christianity. Loving your neighbor might be simple, but it’s not easy. Maybe my neighbor is a jerk too. Maybe they hate God. Maybe they are actively and violently opposed to everything I believe. And showing them grace feels impossible. So instead of dealing with that, we get online and police people. We find small things to focus on that will distract us. I think God wants us to discuss the little stuff, but we make it an idol when we practice room cleaning Christianity at the exclusion of love. And we tend to become jerks.

    Hopefully you’ve never experienced either of these things. Hopefully this article feels like Amish Romance Fiction, currently a hit amongst Christians. But if it doesn’t, if you’ve been an online jerk, if you’ve acted like I have, there’s hope.

    Jesus came for the mess-ups like us. Jesus came for the failures. Jesus came for the jerks. (That’s not in the King James version of the Bible, I remixed it like Timbaland.) And the truth is, grace is the antidote to being a jerk online.

    So my hope is that you won’t prove my point in the comments section. My hope is you’ll accept my apology for the times I’ve been a jerk to you online.

  • Claude in SoCal

    “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). There is a tendency to declare homosexuality as the worst of all sins. While it is undeniable, biblically speaking, that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural (Romans 1:26-27), in no sense does the Bible describe homosexuality as an unforgivable sin. Nor does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin Christians will never struggle against.

    Perhaps that is the key phrase in the question of whether it is possible to be a gay Christian: “struggle against.” It is possible for a Christian to struggle with homosexual temptations. Many homosexuals who become Christians have ongoing struggles with homosexual feelings and desires. Some strongly heterosexual men and women have experienced a “spark” of homosexual interest at some point in their lives. Whether or not these desires and temptations exist does not determine whether a person is a Christian. The Bible is clear that no Christian is sinless (1 John 1:8,10). While the specific sin / temptation varies from one Christian to another, all Christians have struggles with sin, and all Christians sometimes fail in those struggles (1 Corinthians 10:13).

    What differentiates a Christian’s life from a non-Christian’s life is the struggle against sin. The Christian life is a progressive journey of overcoming the “acts of the flesh” (Galatians 5:19-21) and allowing God’s Spirit to produce the “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22-23). Yes, Christians sin, sometimes horribly. Sadly, sometimes Christians are indistinguishable from non-Christians. However, a true Christian will always repent, will always eventually return to God, and will always resume the struggle against sin. But the Bible gives no support for the idea that a person who perpetually and unrepentantly engages in sin can indeed be a Christian. Notice 1 Corinthians 6:11, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

    First Corinthians 6:9-10 lists sins that, if indulged in continuously, identify a person as not being redeemed—not being a Christian. Often, homosexuality is singled out from this list. If a person struggles with homosexual temptations, that person is presumed to be unsaved. If a person actually engages in homosexual acts, that person is definitely thought to be unsaved. However, the same assumptions are not made, at least not with the same emphasis, regarding other sins in the list: fornication (pre-marital sex), idolatry, adultery, thievery, covetousness, alcoholism, slander, and deceit. It is inconsistent, for example, to declare those guilty of pre-marital sex as “disobedient Christians,” while declaring homosexuals definitively non-Christians.

    Is it possible to be a gay Christian? If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who struggles against homosexual desires and temptations – yes, a “gay Christian” is possible. However, the description “gay Christian” is not accurate for such a person, since he/she does not desire to be gay, and is struggling against the temptations. Such a person is not a “gay Christian,” but rather is simply a struggling Christian, just as there are Christians who struggle with fornication, lying, and stealing. If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle – no, it is not possible for such a person to truly be a Christian.

    The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality.

    However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).

    By definition, homophobia is fear of homosexuals, but its meaning has been broadened to include hate for homosexuals. Correspondingly, being homophobic tends to manifests itself through an outward demonstration or behavior based on such a feeling. This, in turn, sometimes leads to acts of violence or expressions of hostility. The truth is that homophobia is not just confined to any one segment of society. It can be found in people from all walks of life. Such hate groups have viciously attacked homosexuals and have used especially violent language in attempting to persecute and intimidate homosexuals.

    More often than not, Christians are said to be homophobic simply because they condemn homosexual behavior as sin. But the real fact of the matter is that the term homophobic is merely a “politically correct” scheme used by homosexual activists and supporters in their attempts to deflect a genuine criticism of an immoral and unhealthy practice. Without question there are people and organizations who have developed an irrational hate of homosexuals and who are prepared to use violent actions to inflict suffering upon homosexuals. However, the problem is that the homosexual rights activists have painted with the same brush all who oppose homosexuality, thereby including Christians who rightly discern that homosexuality is an unnatural sin, with violent lunatics who hate for hatred’s sake.

    While the Bible strongly condemns homosexuality, it does not instruct that homosexuals are to be hated. As Christians we are to speak out against the perversion of homosexual activity. The Bible is explicit in its condemnation of it, as well as God’s wrath towards those who practice such behavior. As Christians, we are called to clearly and lovingly call sin for what it is. Using the term homophobia to refer to anyone who opposes homosexuality is a distraction, not a valid argument or accurate representation. A Christian should have only one fear regarding homosexuals, the fear that they will suffer eternally because of their decision to reject the only means of salvation—the Lord Jesus Christ who offers the only hope for escape from a degrading and destructive lifestyle.

  • Matt, Do not listen to the voices that want to drag your sould to hell….
    They are serpents…the spiritual warfare is soooo intense these days.

    Satan has become a member of the “church”, he is pretty smart…Evil does not appear as evil. It takes the form of being on your side…so be extremely discerning.

    You will overcome my friend…
    http://www.godtube.com/featured/video/adam-hood-rewind&utm_source=newsletter070510&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklytopvideos God Bless You!!

  • Cynthia I hope you realize your post shows a lot about who you truly are. Maybe it’s time for you to look at the spec in your own eye. I pray the Holy Spirit will help open your mind and heart. History has shown that Christians such as you have been proven wrong repeatedly. If you don’t believe me look at slavery and women’s rights. For you to be pointing your finger at some of us who are just as Christian as you and implying we are evil is not what how I would view Jesus asking us to love thy neighbor.

    Matt just do your own homework and let the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth.

  • Claude in SoCal

    This question has been asked by countless people throughout the ages. Samuel heard the voice of God, but did not recognize it until he was instructed by Eli (1 Samuel 3:1-10). Gideon had a physical revelation from God, and he still doubted what he had heard to the point of asking for a sign, not once, but three times (Judges 6:17-22, 36-40). When we are listening for God’s voice, how can we know that He is the one speaking? First of all, we have something that Gideon and Samuel did not. We have the complete Bible, the inspired Word of God, to read, study, and meditate on. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). When we have a question about a certain topic or decision in our lives, we should see what the Bible has to say about it. God will never lead us or direct us contrary to what He has taught or promised in His Word (Titus 1:2).

    Second, to hear God’s voice we must recognize it. Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27). Those who hear God’s voice are those who belong to Him—those who have been saved by His grace through faith in the Lord Jesus. These are the sheep who hear and recognize His voice, because they know Him as their Shepherd and they know His voice. If we are to recognize God’s voice, we must belong to Him.

    Third, we hear His voice when we spend time in prayer, Bible study, and quiet contemplation of His Word. The more time we spend intimately with God and His Word, the easier it is to recognize His voice and His leading in our lives. Employees at a bank are trained to recognize counterfeits by studying genuine money so closely that it is easy to spot a fake. We should be so familiar with God’s Word that when God does speak to us or lead us, it is clear that it is God. God speaks to us so that we may understand truth. While God can speak audibly to people, He speaks primarily through His Word, and sometimes through the Holy Spirit to our consciences, through circumstances, and through other people. By applying what we hear to the truth of Scripture, we can learn to recognize His voice.

    Pray, especially when you’re unsure of God’s will for your life. “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him” (James 1:5). “Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him” (Psalm 37:7). If you don’t know what to pray, you can always personalize & pray verses such as, “Show me the way I should go, for to You I lift up my soul” (Psalm 143:8) and, “Guide me in Your truth and teach me” (Psalm 25:5).

    The primary way God commands us is through His Word. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16). If Scripture commands something of us, there’s no need to hesitate & wonder if it’s really God’s will for us. He cares so much about us that He already gave a plain and clear guidebook to life – the Bible. “Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path” (Psalm 119:105). “The Law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple” (Psalm 19:7). “How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to Your Word” (Psalm 119:9). Likewise, God never, ever contradicts Himself, so He’ll never ask you to something contradictory to Scripture. He will never ask you to sin. He will never ask you to do something Jesus Christ wouldn’t do. We need to immerse ourselves in the Bible, so we will know which actions meet God’s standards. “Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth: meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything that is written in it” (Joshua 1:8).

    Christians also have the Holy Spirit to discern what is, or is not, God’s will for our lives. “The Spirit of truth . . . will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13). Sometimes the Holy Spirit will either agitate our conscience if we’re making a wrong decision, or He will pacify and encourage us when we’re leaning toward the right decision. Even if He doesn’t intervene in such noticeable ways, we can have confidence that He’s always in charge. Sometimes God can alter a situation without us even realizing He has acted. “The Lord will guide you always” (Isaiah 58:11).

    If God is calling you to take a leap of faith, be encouraged by His presence. “Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go” (Joshua 1:9). And remember, “Cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you” (1 Peter 5:7). “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

    What we are not to do is expect to hear voices from God. There is a dangerous trend today where people seek to hear a “word from the Lord,” extraneous to the words He has already given us in the Bible. “The Lord told me . . .” has become the mantra of experience-driven Christianity. Unfortunately, what He “tells” one person often contradicts what He “tells” another, and these extra-biblical revelations have proven to be very divisive, tearing apart church after church as one person’s experience seeks to take precedence over another’s. This results in chaos, benefiting no one except Satan, who loves to sow discord among believers. We should make the Apostle Peter our example in these matters. In spite of the miraculous experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, where he beheld the glorified Christ speaking with Moses and Elijah who came from heaven, Peter refused to rely on that experience, declaring instead that “We also have the more sure prophetic word which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place” (2 Peter 1:18-19 NKJV).

    The Bible records God speaking audibly to people many times (Exodus 3:14; Joshua 1:1; Judges 6:18; 1 Samuel 3:11; 2 Samuel 2:1; Job 40:1; Isaiah 7:3; Jeremiah 1:7; Acts 8:26; 9:15 – this is just a small sampling). There is no biblical reason why God could not or would not speak to a person audibly today. With the hundreds of times the Bible records God speaking, we have to remember that they occur over the course of 4,000 years of human history. God speaking audibly is the exception, not the rule. Even in the biblically recorded instances of God speaking, it is not always clear whether it was an audible voice, an inner voice, or a mental impression.

    God does speak to people today. First, God speaks to us through His Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Isaiah 55:11 tells us, “So is my word that goes out from my mouth: it will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.” The Bible records God’s words, everything we need to know in order to be saved and live the Christian life. Second Peter 1:3 declares, “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by his own glory and goodness.”

    Second, God speaks through impressions, events, and thoughts. God helps us to discern right from wrong through our consciences (1 Timothy 1:5; 1 Peter 3:16). God is in the process of conforming our minds to think His thoughts (Romans 12:2). God allows events to occur in our lives to direct us, change us, and help us to grow spiritually (James 1:2-5; Hebrews 12:5-11). First Peter 1:6-7 reminds us, “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.”

    Finally, God may sometimes speak audibly to people. It is highly doubtful, though, that this occurs as often as some people claim it does. Again, even in the Bible, God speaking audibly is the exception, not the ordinary. If anyone claims that God has spoken to him/her, always compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak today, His words would be in full agreement with what He has said in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God does not contradict Himself.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Cynthia: The concept of “blasphemy against the Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32. The term blasphemy may be generally defined as “defiant irreverence.” The term can be applied to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things relating to God. It is also attributing some evil to God, or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him. This case of blasphemy, however, is a specific one, called “the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” in Matthew 12:31. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon “Beelzebub” (Matthew 12:24). Now notice that in Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”

    This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. As a result, this particular incidence of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be duplicated today. Jesus Christ is not on earth—He is seated at the right hand of God. No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The closest example today would be attributing the miracle of a redeemed person’s changed life to Satan’s power rather than to the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    The blasphemy of the Spirit today, which is the same as the unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ is the unpardonable blasphemy against Him. Remember what is stated in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Further on in the same chapter is the verse “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36). The only condition wherein someone would have no forgiveness is if he is not among the “whoever believes in Him,” for it is he who “rejects the Son.”

  • http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html

    Praying for you Matt!

  • Pastor Bob –

    I see you have numerous replies to this blog post but I couldn’t help adding another. I just watched the LKL interview with Jennifer Knapp and yourself and felt that one question in particular was not answered. LK asked Jennifer if she felt she could be both a Christian and a lesbian, and her answer was indirect. She stated that there are numerous translations of scripture and our understanding of the word of God has been tainted due to our inability to understand the original Greek text. Later, she reiterated this statement to you.

    My question is: how do you respond to this? If you are unfamiliar with the original text, how can you be certain that the translation you have is correct? In essence, how can you be certain of what you believe scripturally, and how can you defend what you believe to those who are questioning these possible faulty translations? Is it enough to say that you believe homosexuality is a sin in God’s eyes based solely on the translation you have, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and your knowledge of the character of God due to your relationship with him? Should we be studying the original Greek text?

    I’d be interested to know how Jennifer’s church or counselors interpret the verses that, in my bible, clearly state the homosexuality is an abomination to God. What does she believe? She never stated the interpretation she has come to accept in her own life – yet her evident knowlege of scripture from the lyrics in her early albums reveals that she has read and put stock in at least some of the interpretations in a standard bible. If she does not have extensive knowledge of the original Greek text, how can she choose to believe some of the English bible and not other pieces of it? Is the argument of translation merely an excuse to defend a certain lifestyle, or does it hold value?

    I’ve run into this question before and I never know how to respond.

  • I guess what really puzzles me is why so many people are so much more obsessed with this issue than many others we are told to be passionate about. Scripture speaks so much more often and clearly about sharing our possessions and making sure we do not let our neighbors starve. Jesus himself spoke often and very clearly about so many things that the Christian community seems to put as secondary. It is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, Jesus said.

    I so value the kindness of your approach and words and witness, and I appreciate that you are not approaching this with a tone of hate. I hear you and believe you when you say you are saddened, but not hate-filled. Would that all people at least begin with an approach of love!

    What really puzzles me is why things like poverty, child abuse, corporate greed, and racism do not stir as much fervor and emotion … on all sides of the debate.

  • http://www.massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html

    This just maybe the reason people are “obssesed”…..
    When preverts want to mess with my kids…trust me.. i will get obssesed.

    The issue at hand in this particular blog is homosexuality.

  • http://100777.com/homosexuality

    More info on the topic of this particular blog….

  • http://www.MassResistance.org/index.html

    Mass Resistance exposes the darkness!
    At least somebody is!

  • Claude in SoCal

    Lauren: Don’t hold your breath. If you expect Bob to answer your question. He will not. I heard his radio program right after he was on LKL. Bob passed the buck & asked other people to answer the emails he got.
    For me, that shows weakness. Because he can make his points on this blog & on TV but whenever Bob is questioned he remains silent. I guess he belives that he can’t be questioned. & for me that is dangerous.
    Calvary Chapel/Horizion/Harvest & Calvary Chapel fellowship of Churches & even Calvary Chapel Distictives show this. Because they want people to follow them blindly & trust them, yet, when someone has a question for a the Sr. Pastor they brush you off.
    Test all things & every Pastor that is on KWVE 107.9 FM & KKLA 99.5FM From Pastor’s Perspective to The Frank Pastore Show.
    Actions speak louder than words. & lip service is old.

  • Claude in SoCal, you forgot one piece to your last post. It’s also about money. If some had really done their homework they would realize many well known Pastors fall victim to greed and wealth. To live in an almost million dollar home you have to be making good pay, right?

  • Claude in SoCal

    For me, if they live in million dollar homes & then get in the pulpit or even on TV & radio & ask for money for their programs to stay on air. They should use their own money. Skip Heitzig does this every other month on his program. Yet, The Connection Radio ministry makes boat loads of money & they don’t put the money they make back into it. He wants eveyone else to do it.
    Google Skip Heitzig & there are articles that will show you how much he makes & yet, The Connection ask for more money.
    That is being dishonest.

  • I wasn’t even thinking about that. I was thinking more along the lines of how many homeless, orphans and hungry people there are in this country but yet they have enough to buy large homes, wear designer clothes, etc. It’s kind of ironic that they point out the sins of others, asking them to repent and not to continue to live in sin. Meanwhile they are doing the exactly that while still continuing to ask for more money.

  • Claude in SoCal

    But that does go hand in hand. The Dream Center out in L.A. reaches out to the homeless, drug users & people that will never step into any church of any flavor.
    The Dream Center with Matthew Barnett is a church of action & compassion.
    All other talk about doing the work, but they are doing the work of Christ & witnessing & meeting the needs of the lost.
    That is how the Church is suppose to be. By loving & caring for the sinner even if they don’t come to church.

  • Claude in SoCal

    I’ll share a story with you. When I was going to Calvary Chapel Chino Hills (Jack Hibbs). The worship leader & band also known as The Kry. Where out in the foyer. & the lead singer was talking bad about Calvary Chapel Chino Valley (David Rosales) & Calvary Chapel Golden Springs (Raul Ries). They where claiming that Chino Hills was or is a better ministry than those two.
    I guess when you are on the payroll & you belive no one is hearing you talk as you make jokes about other fellowships with in the same movement.
    Because Calvary Chapel/Harvest/Horizion & Calvary Chapel fellowship of Churches really don’t care for each other.
    So, when they teach we are one body. I would question that.

  • Claude in SoCal

    Lord Save Us the Movie
    http://lordsaveusthemovie.com

  • From the Larry King interview it Jennifer showed no signs that she is a saved person yet. She referred to God’s Word as “mysterious” and as only something the Pastor would be familiar with since he went to seminary and studied the Bible. She didn’t mention any connection to God’s Word or to her relationship with Jesus as her Savior. Born Again believers are saved through the Word and are not so unfamiliar with it. Jennifer’s sees it as “mysterious” sacred writings in foreign languages subject to Gay theology twisting. She can’t yet see the simple plain Truth in God’s Word, probably because she doesn’t want to see it and have to repent and give up her lifestyle, and/or sin has blinded her, and/or she loves her sin more than Christ. If she had Christ’s Spirit in her how could she see the plain teaching of Romans 1 and go on living in lesbian lust for all these years with no Holy Spirit conviction at all? Pray for her salvation and the gift of repentence that God gives to all whom He saves. If Jennifer was saved then she wouldn’t be denying the plain truth of God’s Word here:

    Romans 1
    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    John 3:
    19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

  • Pastor Bob,

    I am not a member of your church, but I stumbled across your interview with Jennifer Knapp on Larry King while searching for a song on Youtube. I have since watched every video of yours I can find. I am becoming deeply and strongly aware of my spiritual gift, and see the world more in black and white than ever before. The interview hurt me to the core when both Ted and Jennifer kept stretching and weakening the Word, but I delighted in seeing a fellow Christian stand up without backing down. Thank you for that. I have since watching this interview over and over, and have noticed a change in my prayers. I pray every day that I am given the opportunity to make a stand and defend the Word like you have. As the world grows darker and darker, seeing the Light come from you both encourages and emboldens me to be crucified with Christ every day. Thank you, so much, and God bless you ministry as he already has.

  • Legendary author Anne Rice has announced that she’s quitting Christianity.

    The “Interview with a Vampire” author, who wrote a book about her spirituality titled “Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession” in 2008, said Wednesday that she refuses to be “anti-gay,” “anti-feminist,” “anti-science” and “anti-Democrat.”

    Rice wrote, “For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.”

    Rice then added another post explaining her decision on Thursday:

    “My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me,” Rice wrote. “But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”

  • As a Christian it is hard to show love through truth. I think this post was a great example of showing Christ’s love through truth. Thank you for this and for the example. I am praying for you as you continue to speak truth in a world that doesn’t always want to hear it. May God bless you!

  • Hi Bob, my wife and I listen to you every morning when we wake up at 5am on KWVE.
    I read a commentary on Christian Web News (CWNewz.com)
    by Leah Jones and I responded to her commentary on Bible translations in which Jennifer Knapps stated that we can have a different interpretation from the Holy Bible. Leah Jones defends your position but what intriged me was the sources she was using to defend your position and ours that homosexuality is a sin that is condemned in its practice. Here is the link to the website: http://cwnewz.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1129&Itemid=2&mosmsg=Thanks+for+your+vote%21
    And here was my exact response:
    “Ms Jones, sorry for the delayed response to this old subject but I would like to respond to what you wrote. With all due respect, your usage of the “Message” paraphrase (not a Bible) supports homosexual behavior in Romans 1:26-32 in the passage you sited!
    Look at it again it says,”…they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love.” It actually supports the relationship if there is love and not lust!
    Also, using 2 Peter 1:20-21 is not in agreement with any modern Bible version that have a “copyright” to their translations! The true Word of God cannot be “copyrighted” because it did not originate with man! Look at any “modern translation” and you will see that it has a copyright(s).What they are stating is that the translation they have created is not the Word of God but there own words! Here is the definition of a “copyright” in the New Standard Encyclopedia vol. 3, page 565-
    “The Legal protection given to authors and artists to prevent reproduction of their work without there consent. The owner of a copyright has the exclusive right to print, reprint, publish, copy and sell the material covered by the copyright.”
    The only bible that has no copyright is the King James Bible also known as the Authorized Version!
    If a King James has any copyright from a publisher it’s only the publishers notes and layouts not the Word of God! 2Timothy 2:9 states,
    “Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.”
    If we were to ask Jennifer Knapp which Bible she was reading from, it would most certainly be one of the “many” modern translations that would support her gay lifestyle. That’s why Bob Botsford got tangled up…all he had to ask is which Bible version was she reading from!”
    Bob we love you….Proverbs 27:17 “Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

  • Christ’s bride, the Church, has been attacked by powers greater than us since Jesus called the twelve disciples. She has at many times and in too many churches been abused from the inside by those in the grip of ego, war mongering, lust, dishonesty, greed, hate, and the like. She has been labeled with many different negative names throughout the centuries. And yet the Church never dies, continually finds new growth, and acts in many many ways with love to those in physical, emotional and spiritual need.

    Jesus loves the Church, He died for His Bride, and if we love Christ we should continue to pray for, love, and be a part of the Church. We cannot follow Christ as His disciples and not belong to the Church any more than Christ can abandon His Bride – He won’t. And praise God that there are many churches around the world populated with believers who seek after Him diligently, love their neighbor to the best that they can, and when they fail, repent and receive God’s grace.

    If we strive after God and His Truth, we will find both. If we join together in prayer with one or more other believers, Jesus will be there also. God’s people are called to be together, called to be the Church, with all our heart, with all our struggles, with all our love.

    Praise God for His unending love, His peace, and His grace.

  • It looks like this blog-conversation has been going on a while. I reluctantly offer these words knowing they may never reach Pastor Bob…nonetheless, others may benefit from them by the grace of God.

    I challenge Pastor Bob’s presentation of the scriptures used to articulate his position on homosexuality and the singer in question.

    1) Pastor Bob uses the story of the prodigal son found in Luke 15. Take a moment and read it, google it, it’s marvelous. And it’s not really about a son so much. Pastor Bob uses this story to posit a way “we” come to faith, and come to God. But this parable isn’t about us primarily. It’s about God. It falls as the 3rd of three parables ALL talking about God’s search for us…NOT our search for God. (lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son…that’s what we call them anyway)
    Scripture on the other hand starts off the parable “A man had two sons” The story is about a father not the sons. as you read it, it talks about the other son (who doesn’t repent, as pastor Bob wants to highlight) and the father still says “all I have is yours” God is the father in search of both his children, the shepherd in search of every lost sheep UNTIL he finds it, and the lost coin he’s willing to tear his house up over looking to find it…It’s about God looking for us. (This isn’t to deny our response to God’s love, just where the thrust of the story is coming from. We can lose the story and lose what’s important)

    2) Pastor Bob then rather flippantly (my opinion) dismisses Jennifer’s casual remarks about levitical law (shellfish, mixed thread in a grament, mixed seed in a garden, etc.) He goes on to say that God changed his mind about food in Acts 10. read the story, google it, it’s marvelous! It’s not about food either. It’s about Cornelius ( a human-being and a gentile) the implications of this verse are that Peter (A Jew) will not be able to eat at table with a gentile because of what he understands to be “faithful keeping of Torah” He can’t eat shellfish and pork, or assosciate with the unclean gentile….to which God replies “Don’t call unclean what I’ve made clean” yes this is using food as a metaphor…but it’s just that….He tells Peter to “Rise up, kill and eat” There’s nothing now keeping Peter from eating with a gentile “whom God has made clean” Peter can have a ham sandwich or not. But the important thing is he can eat with a gentile. It’s about people, not God changing his mind about food.
    3) Pastor Bob talks about Romans 1 and it’s implications concerning homosexuality. I like what one biblical scholar poignantly said about the book of Romans…”it’s like a bicycle, you need to keep moving forward, or you’ll lose the momentum Paul is developing and fall off” If you keep reading to ch. 2, 3, etc. Paul is not listing the offenses you still have to “look out for” He’s saying “everybody’s covered when it comes to sin” AND “everybody’s covered when it comes to God’s mercy” stop in any one chapter in romans and you can end up with a completely different theology about jews, gentiles, sinners, saints, etc. try it, I dare you, read the whole book of Romans in one sitting, and see if Paul seems if as he is breathlessly covering the bases.
    I don’t think Pastor Bob is making a case out of hate. I genuinely think he is doing what he’s doing out of love. I just don’t think it’s very loving…and I don’t think the interpretation of the scripture he offers is very appropriate. I also have come to believe that the “Ray Comfort” style of evangelism that says “were just trying to save you from a burning house” is unscriptural and unChristlike as well.

    God’s not a fireman saving you from a burning building that you need to realize is a construct of your sinful imagination and choose to get out of.

    God is a father who had two sons…and he loves them both, period.
    God is a shepherd who is out and about looking for his sheep, and throwing parties when he finds them, period.
    God is like a woman in search of a lost coin, whose thrown every piece of furniture she owns into the front yard, tearing up the house from top to bottom, UNTIL she finds us. AMEN.

  • There is nothing that says “comments closed” , yet I don’t see my post.
    This troubles me, can you explain?
    Peace to you

  • Dear Pastor Bob,

    Keep the faith, and know that we are behind you all the way. Have a wonderful and peaceful vacation up at Mammoth. We miss you!
    Love in His Name,

    Mimi

  • This is going around regarding this subject interesting perspective.

    When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, Christian simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

    7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.

  • Heather of the EO

    I just watched LKL. I watched it right after a friend and I emailed back and forth about her homosexuality. She is hurting, knowing that her family will surely disown her when she comes out. She spoke of remembering, as a young woman, even in middle school, her feelings for women. They were always there. My response as a Christian? To tell her I’m sorry she’s hurting. To tell her that I love her and that I know a Father, my Abba, who loves her fully, right now, just as she is. Would it be my job EVER to speak anything beyond that? I think not. My entire life I’ve listened to pastor’s point out sin, specific biggies, you know all the ones. It has never once been well with my soul. I don’t know why people are not taught and led through love alone. Each of us, when faced with the radical and totally unfair in the best way LOVE of Christ, is changed. We are left mute, dumbfounded, healed and humbled. We should not be able to utter words against each other, if we’ve truly grasped the love of God.
    As an alcoholic in recovery, I sit in meetings with people who share my same problem. Our truths are transparent. Our stories ugly and hard. There is no need to wear a mask of perfection. There is no ascension mentality (you do this and I don’t do that, therefore I’m on a more right path than you are…I have died to Christ and you have not, etc) I wish everyone could experience it. To be brought SO to the end of yourself that you are left with no words for another soul, only love. There is more redemption, grace and holiness in those meetings than there will ever be in any church, I’m convinced of it. And never in my life have I felt the mercy and unconditional love of God in this way. We are all so broken and so fixed. It’s as if we’re looking at a very abstract painting of ourselves and each other. Some of us pick out the mistakes, the errant brush-strokes in our fellows, and some of us stand agape at the imperfect beauty of the whole picture.
    When we stand before God ourselves and we whisper over and over, “Abba, I belong to you,” these thoughts of others, the way we take their inventory out of fear, it falls away, as it should.

  • Heather of the EO

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC0j6FTg1xU

    Derek Webb makes a very good point.

    We get so lost, don’t we? What matters most to us? The lifestyles of others? The sick and the poor, the hurting, the alone? When do we have time for serving the world if we’re stuck in our bubbles, perfecting our own faith and pointing out sin, even by name, Jennifer Knapp, Come out.

    Starving, hurricanes, earthquakes, orphans, widows, naked, addicted, insane….
    I think we should probably focus on ourselves. Just imagine if we all did that, and then always, simply did the next thing with great love.

  • Bob, I came to this sight after the LKL show. I read your blog here. If someone is “trapped” in a burning building, yes, of course it would be wrong to not help them get out, unless of course you were incapable of helping them. To follow your metaphor through, obviously you are incapable of pulling Jennifer out of this burning building or you would have by now. Now let’s look at Jennifer. She probably does not see or feel herself to be “trapped” in some burning building she needs to be saved from. She is where she is, willingly, honestly, truthfully. What is there to save her from then? From an imaginary burning building you, the all knowing all seeing one, thinks she should be saved from? If God makes a law, let God be the prosecutor, the jury and the judge. God’s law is not for our simple minds to go around policing others with. Your metaphor of being “trapped” in a burning building does not work in your favor. I makes you out to look like you want to be God’s policeman or fireman; a savior. What you think is dangerous, “fire”, may not be dangerous to her at all! Remember Daniel in the lions den? This is going to be hard for you to see, but she is making a very potent point here. And the point is pointing at you; your lack of faith and humility. Your human blindness/weakness/lack of faith in God’s ability to love us all, to protect us all, just as we are wherever we are, speaks volumes about you. You think you have to fix Jennifer; save her! You think you are God’s eyes, ears and voice; God’s enforcer! You are so full of yourself; your ego/darkness/sin/satan! The sin of your ego is what you need to be focusing on here. Remove the log out of your own eye first so you can see the truth of the whole situation. Let love, God’s love, work in her life and yours. He can do this work just fine without you creating more division in our already fractured world. You are just making things worse for yourself; for all of us! She is getting a very powerful and potent lesson from being in a homosexual relationship. How do you know God does not have a plan for her exactly the way she is and that this lesson is not part of it? All relationships grow us and help us awaken to Truth. Do not rob her of this lesson just because you can’t see its usefulness or understand it. Trust in God; TOTALLY!

    You are mistaken if you think this is not about your omniscient egotistical infatuation with power. Her best life is to be lived authentically in her truth as she evolves; unlike you, who may have had to deny his authentic process as a human being in a desperate attempt to be PERFECT. Who are you trying to be perfect for? Jesus died in vain if you cannot surrender your desire to be perfect. I would say you are too short sighted and egotistical to see the beauty of this human “process” that God gave us for a reason. You are so wrapped up in policing other people’s lives and correcting them to your standards (under the guise of “biblical standards”) that you fail to look at your own life; exploring the beauty of the self discovery process. You are currently on the prodigal son’s path yourself. You may not even be able to see it because your ego has put you to sleep in your self righteousness. This human life is growing you, teaching you, taking you down the prodigal son’s path and you don’t even know it. That is the irony of this path. Be grateful. You must walk this path in order to know true compassion for others who are walking this path. There is enough time and enough of God’s love to allow you this valuable opportunity. Don’t deny yourself this lesson. Loving Jennifer as you love yourself can only happen when you truly love yourself. Your judgments of Jennifer show me that you do not truly love yourself; not fully yet. It’s because you have too much judgment in you; non forgiveness for something you despise in yourself. You have not ever hit rock bottom to the point of having to forgive and love your human self as a child of God. The real issue here is that you are clearly unconscious of being on the prodigal son’s journey and have not yet returned home. That’s okay, we are supposed to be asleep on this journey in order to have the powerful awakening that changes our heart and mind towards Love; true Love, God’s love. When you wake up, you will come home, you will leave the sin of self righteousness behind and you will love Jennifer and others not with human love but with God’s love; a love you must surrender your ego to in order to truly know it with all your heart, mind and soul. When that happens, your life as you know it today will change forever.

    Respectfully,
    stephilosophy2@yahoo.com

  • I posted two or three times quite early on in this thread, specifically addressing Pastor Bob. I’m very disappointed he hasn’t responded to my original post. I guess at this point I shouldn’t hold my breath for this one.

    Thank you all for sharing with us.

    :) GodKnowsMyName

  • BELVA COLEEN re feet of paradise CARLIE

  • Good luck Jen!

  • Wow…I hope you are comfortable with blood on your hands.

  • Stephilosophy, you make some great points but unfortunately, when someone is so caught up in themselves they lose their ability to recognize the truth about who they truly are because their mind is closed. Your opinion will probably be dismissed unless there is a bunch of divinity letters after it. I often wonder if the Satan here on earth is actually the ego and the power it has over people. An ego, filled with righteous, selfishness, greed for objects and things of this world. Love is what conquers ego, love for our fellow human beings, love for earth and the creatures that inhabit it. Love for those that are different than the cookie cutter image men thousands of years ago thought we should be especially when reproduction for our species was so important. Now look at earth today with too many people using up all the resources it has, driving animals God created into extinction. Its nuts.

  • Pastor Bob,
    Hi, I am Maggie Madimbo from African Bible College, in Malawi. We met in Malawi in 2009 when you went to speak at graduation. I am currently studying at Eastern University working on my PhD. We had talked for sometime when you were in Malawi. I gave you my email address but never got yours. I would like to be communicating with you via email.
    I look forward to hearing from you.
    Blessings
    Maggie

  • The one thing that can really make you realize that the Bible was written by men and not God is the fact that Earth is not the only planet out there. As we evolve and continue to obtain further knowledge of ourselves, this planet, life, it can only lead to more amazement on the awesomeness of the entire universe.

    “After years of saying habitable exoplanets are just around the corner, planet hunters have finally found one. Gliese 581g is the first planet found to lie squarely in its star’s habitable zone, where the conditions are right for liquid water.”

    It’s just one more reason to step back put the Bible into a historical perspective when reading the text and being fully aware that the men that wrote did so from a limited knowledgeable perspective and bias opinions. As we continue to gain further knowledge, I believe we are being shown that God’s is not done yet. It’s a shame that so many in the Church today keep putting God in a box made thousands of years ago. It’s only time before we realize we are not unique nor are we alone. As God reveals things to us in the here and now, I believe that has to be considered when forming an opinion. Just like the revelation that homosexuality is shown in the animal kingdom so has it been shown in humans, it’s NOT a mental defect or a choice. It would be nice if the ministers who are so stuck in the past could wake up their consciousness to see what God is revealing to them in the now. It’s too bad Pastor Bob is still in the darkness of the past.

  • lol I love reading this. Pastor Bob, I was sad to watch you on Larry King Live as to see that you are the only Christian on that show ruling out Larry King. I will pray for you as you have spoken truth in the midst of darkness. God bless brother.

  • Cornelia Seigneur

    I have enjoyed Jennifer Knapp’s music for years-the honesty and raw vulnerable beauty of her words and music has moved me to prayer. I was shocked to hear this news of Jennifer’s coming out in the Christianity Today story and on Relevant’s blog. Interestingly on the Larry King interview, it seems as if you and Jennifer are coming at it from opposite points of view regarding your stance on the issue and what you feel the Bible says. You really were not being judgmental, only stating what the Bible says.
    http://www.corneliaseigneur.com/

  • Pastor Bob is blocking messages that don’t agree with his opinions which is just another demonstration of his bias on this discussion.

  • By Rev. Rebecca Voelkel,

    Before he committed suicide, a high school friend of mine wrote pages and pages in his journal about his turmoil and struggle with his church’s teaching that he, as a gay man, was sick, sinful and an abomination. Finally, it was simply too much for his 15-year-old soul to endure.

    His experience has been writ large in recent weeks as we’ve seen a national spate of suicides caused by bullying – in school and church.

    We’ve seen brutal attacks on gay men in New York City, while New York Republican gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino verbally attacked the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community with divisive, hateful remarks. Threats to LGBT people have become an epidemic.

    As a pastor who claims the life and ministry of Jesus as her model, I need to say that this is simply unacceptable. Preaching hate from our pulpits, in our politics, or to our pupils is never acceptable. It literally endangers lives. And the life and ministry of Jesus always stands against that which hates, hurts or destroys.

    Last weekend, at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force’s Believe Out Loud Power Summit in Orlando, Fla., more than 300 Christian leaders gathered to stand against this kind of violence and to proclaim the extravagant welcome and inclusive justice of the gospel.

    Through worship, Bible study and teaching, participants affirmed a vision – rooted in Jesus’ life and ministry – of a church whose primary mission is proclaiming God’s love for all people, and a practicing justice that is specific, particular and concrete. Participants prepared themselves for action within their churches and society. This includes:

    • Creating a church that ordains all who have a call and a commitment to ministry.

    • Building a church in which all the sacraments are for all the baptized.

    • Embodying a church that celebrates love — in all its forms — including in blessing the marriages of same-sex couples.

    • Being a church that advocates tirelessly for the human and civil rights of all people — including for housing, employment, health care, immigration and marriage equality.

    We strive for these goals because Jesus calls us to enter into real people’s lives and show God’s love in real ways. That can literally save lives.

    About a year ago, a United Methodist pastor in Florida made the courageous decision to proclaim God’s specific and concrete love for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. And he got a lot of negative pushback. But he persisted, because he knew this persistent love is what he is called by God to do.

    Last week, a young man from his congregation who had left for college called and asked him for a meeting. When they finally sat down, the young man said to him, “I am a gay man and I’m alive today because of you.” That is the power of the life-saving gospel of Christ.

  • Hey everyone I’m back. I need encouragement, and inspiration. It would be great if we ca start this chat up again. You guys are great friends. The Lord had been workin through me alot these past months. I’d love to communicate with all you my Godly friends.

    -matt :)

  • Child Abuse Rate At Zero Percent In Lesbian Households, New Report Finds

    Los Angeles, CA — The Williams Institute, a research center on sexual orientation law and public policy at UCLA School of Law, has announced new findings from the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study (NLLFS), the longest-running study ever conducted on American lesbian families (now in its 24th year). In an article published today in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, the 17-year-old daughters and sons of lesbian mothers were asked about sexual abuse, sexual orientation, and sexual behavior.

    The paper found that none of the 78 NLLFS adolescents reports having ever been physically or sexually abused by a parent or other caregiver. This contrasts with 26 percent of American adolescents who report parent or caregiver physical abuse and 8.3 percent who report sexual abuse.

    According to the authors, “the absence of child abuse in lesbian mother families is particularly noteworthy, because victimization of children is pervasive and its consequences can be devastating. To the extent that our findings are replicated by other researchers, these reports from adolescents with lesbian mothers have implications for healthcare professionals, policymakers, social service agencies, and child protection experts who seek family models in which violence does not occur.”

    The study was conducted by Nanette Gartrell, M.D., Henny Bos, Ph.D. (University of Amsterdam), and Naomi Goldberg, M.P.P. (Williams Institute). Principal investigator Nanette Gartrell, M.D., is a 2010 Williams Distinguished Scholar, an associate clinical professor of psychiatry at UCSF, and affiliated with the University of Amsterdam.

  • As a female who is still struggling with this, extremely discouraged and overwhelmed, not knowing which way to take my life…. I would welcome the opportunity to dialogue with others who are on the same path. If you provide your email address, I’ll write to you.

    Thanks,
    L

  • @GodKnowsMyName

    The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:

    Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.

    Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab state in the abstract of their 2010 study, The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

    _______

    So, even if you can keep showing the truth regarding homosexuality to the Christian community they will disregard it based on what someone thought about it thousands of years ago. We were shown the truth regarding slavery, women issues and put the bible into the correct historical perspective. Now if only the same could be said about homosexuality so that Christ’s true love for others who are different could be realized, instead of fueling judgmental attitudes. Good luck to you.

  • Dear Pastor Bob,

    I want to thank you for the stance you have taken on this very difficult and sensitive issue. Why is it difficult and sensitive? Because man has made it that way. Over 10 years ago, the truth set me free from a lifestyle of homosexuality. I repented and returned to Christ and since then my life has been blessed beyond words. Ironically, I became Jennifer Knapp when I married my husband 8 years ago. If you’d like to hear my story and see what God has done to redeem my life you can watch it here: http://support.flannel.org/

    May God take the scales off of Jennifer’s eyes.

    In Jesus,

    Jennifer Knapp

  • Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, may all your wishes come true!

  • I thought I would share what this pastor wrote. My wish for Christmas is we all learn to respect each other.

    As clergy who care about our members’ lives and the hospitality of our community. We were saddened, then, to read responses saying “homosexuality is a sin.” Although such a statement clearly comes out of a deep conviction, we, too, have deeply held beliefs and we feel compelled by our faith to speak out. Being gay is not a sin. We have read widely, studied the Bible, been in many conversations with gay persons and their families and are convinced that being gay is not a choice a person makes, it is who a person is — much the same way that one’s eyes are brown or one is left-handed.

    We too love the Bible and base our lives on its teachings. At the same time we recognize that it contains many legal and ritual prescriptions that people today no longer accept. For example, we regularly wear clothes that have a variety of types of threads mixed together within them; few people would support stoning children for disobedience; and most people would not assume slavery as part of the social system, as Paul does. Our challenge is to discern what parts of the Bible will be our highest authority: the few verses that seem to reject gay people or the countless times the Scriptures exhort us to do justice and love our neighbor.
    A common thread runs through the scriptures of many faiths: the importance of mutual respect and the inherent worth of each person. In our work as ministers, we often counsel people who face discrimination because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. Some are bullied or harassed at school. Others face being fired. Some are beaten on the street and are afraid to go to the police for fear of further harassment.

    Such daily oppression takes a toll on a person. Hiding who you are may help you keep your job, but it also deadens a piece of one’s soul. Providing a home and caring for one’s family brings much satisfaction in life. All of us strive to achieve that good life and find that happiness. In contrast, living in fear for one’s economic security or even one’s safety undermines the goodness of life and destroys the possibility of happiness.

    We believe that people of faith have a responsibility to care for each other — body and soul. So our faith requires us not only to speak of human dignity but to work to ensure that every member of our community is treated fairly. Our concern is about people not living in fear anymore. It is about embracing family. It is about freedom and equality. It is about respect for difference.

    As clergy serving in your communities, we sincerely hope and pray that we can live together with respect.

  • @ Jennifer Knapp

    Hi Jennifer,
    Thank you so much for sharing your story. I just finished watching your video and I feel encouraged and assured of the hope we have in Jesus. I have struggled with lesbianism for seven years and all along, like you, I’ve known it is wrong. I walked away from my relationship with God and bought into the “Gay Gospel” I was never convinced it was true and always knew deep in my heart it was deceptive to the highest degree. God has been drawing me back. Through it all, He never left me. Please pray for me and my family as I seek God to heal and restore my marriage.

    God bless you for sharing your story of healing. If God can do it for you, He can do it for me and for others, too! You have touched my heart today and I thank you for that.

    GodKnowsMyName

  • I’ve heard about this issue but never looked into it up until now. Your part in the Larry King Live interview is a perfect example of what Jesus has called us to do; speak the truth, even if no one hears, accepts, and willingly rejects. When judgement will come, they will not be able to say they weren’t told of the truth. Each point you gave made me want to shout out “Amen!” in agreement. The point you made about us dying for the sin and living for God so that He could be glorified through us, rather than justify the sin they don’t want to leave was the ultimate point in this whole situation. I’m thankful there are still Pastors out there, such as yourself, who stand up for the whole Truth, without softening the edges, yet speak the Truth wholeheartedly whether or not those who are captivated by their sin like it or not. It is usually those who take offense at the slightest notion that their deed is sinful, who are truly blindsighted and fooled and have no desire to repent; although deep down inside they know its wrong yet don’t want to admit it because the sin is appealing. I can’t help but get that impression from Jennifer Knapp. I couldn’t stand to watch throught the entire thing, but even though for one slightest moment you may have felt you had no support (you were up against 3!) or faltered in any way, remember, as I’m sure you do, the battle is not lost! If God is for us, who can stand against us? In this temporary world, everyone can feel as if they can take control of their life, but ultimately, God is in control. And even though He is Patient, Kind, Loving, and Merciful, He is also a Consuming Fire! And people forget that due to His great patience and mercy! But we must not forget that the battle will continue to wage until we leave our temporary lives on Earth and Rejoice in the Kingdom forever and ever. When the Disciples asked Jesus what they should look out for in the coming of the end of the world, He responded with many examples, one of which states clearly, “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’…standing in the Holy place…(Matthew 24:15)” meaning that deeds which are an abomination before the Lord will be okayed in churches, is the beginning of the end of the world as we know it. The perfect example for the passage are gays in churches! And people who call themselves Christian support it! Who can whithstand the wrath of God? Will we be able to really stand before the Lord and make excuses, justify our sins, explain it was a journey? We will not!!! We will tremble in fear and awe of our God and beg for mercy! I thank you for reminding me that there are still people out there who serve the Lord unfalteringly. God Bless you.

  • Tatiana,
    Thank you so much for the kindness of your words. I look back on that day and still prayerfully hope not only for the witness you so beautifully described, but even more for the repentance in the heart of JK and so many others who continue living in the self justified darkness of their sin. In great concern for the many consequences of her own will, I fervently pray for her, that her eyes would be opened and for her heart to come home in true repentance to her Heavenly Father. What a day that would be, and I have faith to believe that someday it will happen. For the Glory of His Great Name, pb

  • “although deep down inside they know its wrong yet don’t want to admit it because the sin is appealing.”

    The problem with making this assumption is you think you know how a homosexual truly feels inside and you do not. Only God does.You are not gay and your assumptions about it is absolutely scary especially since you obviously are ignoring all the facts about it to justify your interpretations of the scriptures.

  • @ Giovanna

    With all due respect… Pro Gay Theology is a deceptive lie. Pastor Bob is not in error when it comes to the truth of the scriptures.

    I am someone who has struggled in this area and I know what it feels like, but I also know that God’s word doesn’t support same sex relationships. They are sinful and an abomination to God. We can’t act based on our feelings and be dooped into thinking God approves of them because it feels right to us. It’s one of the greatest deceptions of the Devil.

    May you find the truth and may the truth set you free!
    In love,
    GKMN

  • @GodKnowsMyName what you are describing is bisexuality and not homosexuality there is a difference. The interpretation of scripture is being debated even today exactly as it was during slavery, woman’s rights, stoning your children, etc… There are many religious authorities that are now saying homosexuality as we know and understand it today is not a sin. You can side with Pastor Bob all you want and that’s ok because he is reinforcing your interpretation. God is the one who will have the final say, not you and certainly not Pastor Bob or myself. I am merely showing the other side to this argument because I do not agree with the hatred that is being shown for what some believe to be a sin. It’s really hard for someone to believe in God when the Christian is overshadowing it by the hate for the sin. If you believe someone is living in abominable and repulsive sin, does that person sense God’s love radiating from you. Absolutely, not and that is the problem.

  • @Giovanna I have made my point, as you have read above. It was my opinion and support of Pastor Bob. If you’re looking for an argument, seek no further; your logic will never deter my way of thinking, and unfortunately, you seem unshakable as well. May you seek comfort in finding Grace, rather than arguments with each commentor. I, on the other hand, will not cast my pearls at swine.

  • Maybe this pastors response will help understand why I continue to show the other side to this discussion.

    In our time, God is doing a work amongst the LGBT community that the traditional church has never expected. A deep, spiritual longing is giving voice to our oppressed gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, demanding that we rethink what we have believed, taught and practiced with respect to the LGBT community and faith. Like the early church, the table has been set for us to sit down, eat together and hear the stories of what God has been doing amongst the LGBT people so that we can work out a way to practice our faith together. The theological arguments and Biblical debates should not stop, but they should only continue within the context of a pastoral response. We are all sinners and none sits in judgment over another. If one thinks the practice or belief of another is in error, then we need to come to the table to discuss it and seek a resolution. We are all being sanctified by the Spirit of God, but we can’t dictate what that work of the Spirit might be or how long it will take. Again, the table is the place we can tell the stories of what God is doing and encourage each other to stay strong and faithful in the journey of life. We are all called to unity in the body of Christ and the table is a physical expression of that. Despite our differences, we can eat together and discuss the way forward in unity regardless of what we don’t agree on.

    If we can put aside our prejudice and fear to work through the issues on the table and remembering that we are all sinners, we’re all being changed, and that we are called to walk the path of life in unity.

  • Something else to consider.

    “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” Exodus 20:16. This is one of God’s most basic commands. Too many Christians today are playing fast and loose with the truth, making sweeping statements about gay and transgender people without ever taking the time to investigate. For example, some confidently assert that “gay people choose to be that way” and “gay people can change their orientation if they want to” and “the gay and trans lifestyle is inherently unhealthy.” None of these statements have any basis in science or reality. As Christians, God expects us to love the truth, seek the truth, and tell the truth – even when it’s not popular.

  • @ Giovanna

    Hi Giovanna,
    I’m unsure where you get that I’m referring exclusively to bisexuality. I didn’t single it out and was speaking to homosexuality and any sexual relationship which steps outside the boundaries of God’s plan for marriage which is one man/one woman. I am not judging anyone because I know what this is all about having been there myself. The scripture is very clear on God’s design for a sexual relationship beginning in Genesis and ending in Revelation. I could debate the scriptures with you but this isn’t the forum for that. The devil is out to steal, to kill and to rob us from God’s plan for our lives. I bought into it for seven years all along knowing it was wrong. My life was just about destroyed because of it. God never left me alone. He continued to love me as he does all homosexuals… His desire is for us to be whole in every way and that doesn’t include a same sex relationship.

    Blessings,
    GKMN

  • Very good information keep up your good work!

  • Visit Teton Valley

    I have not been this excited and motivated by a post for quite some time! Keep up the great job. Keep on inspiring the people!

  • Thank you Pastor! Well said! People need to start defending the Bible if they call them selves Christians- not distorting it! My prayer is that people that calls themselves Christians stand against the popular “acceptance” of sin- the idea that we love the sinner and not the sin… like the pastor said- if we truly love people let them know they are in a burning building-Get OUT! Change! Turn to CHRIST! You are in a burning building and every second you are rushing to eternity! TURN TO CHRIST!

    I do pray that my young daughters will not see her (J Knapp) as an example-no way- she is a confused and lost woman- I pray they look to Paul- who left his sinful life and gave his life for Christ~ and although he endured prison and many hardships and trials on earth he will enjoy a sweet reunion and everlasting communion with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in eternity.

    If we say we love the Lord but can not deny our flesh- it makes me question the sincerity of that statement- to love the Lord fully we must deny “self.” I could go on and on and on and on… but this really makes me sad  Sad for her and sad for the generation of so called “Christian” that my children are growing up with as well…

  • @GodKnowsMyName

    I would say you were tortured inside because you personally feel homosexuality is wrong but not all homosexuals feel that way. They are capable of accepting the fact they are created this way, they are capable of loving their true selves. They should not be condemned for that. You cannot say with complete certainty that God created one man and one women for purpose of marriage. Where did Cain’s wife come from if God did not create her? God created more than just Adam and Eve and just because his other created children aren’t mentioned doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The bible doesn’t answer every question and it doesn’t tell us everything that happened in the past. The story of Adam and Eve is not a scientific thesis, nor a manual on marriage. It is a brief explanation of PART of the creation story. Please remember that in some translation from Hebrew it’s not translated as Adam but as humanity until he is put to sleep.

    According to traditional interpretations, men and women are given different natures, designed by God to complement each other, so that only when they bond together can they be whole. Many have concluded on the basis of this interpretation that diversity in sexual orientation is not part of God’s plan but a “disorder” objectively (at least) associated with sin. As the placards put it: God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. But this interpretation is not necessitated by the silence about same-sex or the celebration of other-sex marriages in Gen 2. In fact there are several reasons to question this interpretation: (1) The text does not specify why Adam is lonely. This loneliness is a problem whose solution is associated with sexual differentiation, but nothing in the text suggests it was caused by the absence of a differently gendered complement. Indeed, the Hebrew terms that specify male and female do not occur in the text until the Creator puts Adam to sleep. Only then does the text suggest that humankind was sexually differentiated. (2) The only creatures specified in the 62 text as unfit sexual partners are from different species. They are unsuitable because they are not human. Gender is not explicitly identified as a criterion for complementarities (3) The text does explicitly suggest that Eve is suitable for partnership not because she is sexually “other” than Adam (though obviously she is) but instead because she is human. Adam does not cry out “Vive la différence!” but exclaims, “Bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh.” The story emphasizes the similarities between these two at least as much as, if not more than, their differences.

  • Bob,
    I give you credit for responding to a lot of the posts on your blog. I’ve spent enough time reading through to see the terrible state our generation is in. You clearly state scripture and Romans, Chapter 1 is pretty clear in Greek, Latin, and English what the inerrant Word of God has to say about homosexuality and other sins. Nothing you can say will deter the negative comments on this blog from those who cannot discern b/c they are not spiritually minded. We just need to continue in the truth as God has protected His word for centuries. There is clearly a turning away of the faith and the itching ears is plain to see. I like what you said about Christ response to the woman caught in the very act of adultery. “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” There’s no condemnation in your demeanor or behavior in your mannerism on tv. What the negative responses are screaming about is the light shining on their conscience.

    I will pray for you, brother.

  • I am getting blocked so here is another version. I was surprised to see this article.

    We often hears that Christians have no choice but to regard ho-mo-s3x-ual-ity as a sin – that Scripture simply demands it.

    As a Bible scholar and pastor myself, I say that Scripture does no such thing.

    “I love gay people, but the Bible forces me to condemn them” is a poor excuse that attempts to avoid accountability by wrapping a very particular and narrow interpretation of a few biblical passages in a cloak of divinely inspired respectability.

    Truth is, Scripture can be interpreted in any number of ways. And biblical writers held a much more complicated view of human s3x-uality than contemporary debates have acknowledged.

    In Genesis, for example, it would seem that God’s original intention for humanity was androgyny, not s3x-ual differentiation and heteros3x-uality.

    Genesis includes two versions of the story of God’s creation of the human person. First, God creates humanity male and female and then God forms the human person again, this time in the Garden of Eden. The second human person is given the name Adam and the female is formed from his rib.

    Ancient Christians and Jews explained this two-step creation by imagining that the first human person possessed the genitalia of both s3xes. Then, when the androgynous, dually-s3xed person was placed in the garden, s/he was divided in two.

    According to this account, the man “clings to the woman” in an attempt to regain half his flesh, which God took from him once he was placed in Eden. As third century Rabbi Samuel bar Nahman explained, when God created the first man, God created him with two faces. “Then he split the androgyne and made two bodies, one on each side, and turned them about.”

    When the apostle Paul envisioned the bodies that would be given to humanity at the end of time, he imagined that they would be androgynous, “not male and female.” The third-century non-canonical Gospel of Philip, meanwhile, lamented that s3x-ual difference had been created at all: “If the female had not separated from the male, she and the male would not die. That being’s separation became the source of death.”

    From these perspectives, God’s original plan was s3x-ual unity in one body, not two. The Genesis creation stories can support the notion that s3x-ual intercourse is designed to reunite male and female into one body, but they can also suggest that God’s blessing was first placed on an undifferentiated body that didn’t have s3x at all.

    Heteros3x-ual s3x was therefore an afterthought designed to give back the man what he had lost.

    Despite common misperceptions, biblical writers could also imagine same-s3x intimacy as a source of blessing. For example, the seemingly intimate relationship between the Old Testament’s David and Jonathan, in which Jonathan loved David more than he loved women, may have been intended to justify David’s rise as king.

    Jonathan, not David, was a king’s son. David was only a shepherd. Yet by becoming David’s “woman,” Jonathan voluntarily gave up his place for his beloved friend.

    Thus, Jonathan “took great delight in David,” foiling King Saul’s attempts to arrange for David’s death (1 Samuel 19:1). Choosing David over his father, Jonathan makes a formal covenant with his friend, asking David to remain faithful to him and his descendants.

    Sealing the covenant, David swears his devotion to Jonathan, “for he loved him as he loved his own life” (1 Samuel 20:17). When Jonathan is killed, King David composes a eulogy for him, praising his devotion: “greatly beloved were you to me; your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women” (2 Samuel 1:26).

    Confident claims about the forms of s3x rejected by God are also called into question by early Christian interpretations of the story of Sodom. From the perspective of the New Testament, it was the near rape of angels – not s3x between men – that led to the demise of the city.

    Linking a strange story in Genesis about “sons of God” who lust after “daughters of men” to the story of the angels who visit Abraham’s nephew Lot, New Testament writers concluded that the mingling of human and divine flesh is an intolerable sin.

    As the New Testament letter Jude puts it:

    And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day. Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which, in the same manner as they, indulged in s3x-ual immorality and went after strange flesh, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire (Jude 6-7).

    The first time angels dared to mix with humans, God flooded the earth, saving only Noah, his family, and the animals. In the case of Sodom, as soon as men attempted to engage in s3x-ual activity with angels, God obliterated the city with fire, delivering only Lot and his family. S3x with angels was regarded as the most dangerous and offensive s3x of all.

    It’s true that same-s3x intimacy is condemned in a few biblical passages. But these passages, which I can count on one hand, are addressed to specific s3x acts and specific persons, not to all humanity forever, and they can be interpreted in any number of ways.

    The book of Leviticus, for example, is directed at Israelite men, offering instructions regarding legitimate s3x-ual partners so long as they are living in Israel. Biblical patriarchs and kings violate nearly every one of these commandments.

    Paul’s letters urge followers of Christ to remain celibate and blame all Gentiles in general for their poor s3x-ual standards. Jesus, meanwhile, says nothing at all about same-s3x pairing, and when he discusses marriage, he discourages it.

    So why are we pretending that the Bible is dictating our s3x-ual morals? It isn’t.

    Moreover, as Americans we should have learned by now that such a simplistic approach to the Bible will lead us astray.

    Only a little more than a century ago, many of the very same passages now being invoked to argue that the scriptures label ho-mo-s3x-ual-ity a sin or that God cannot countenance gay marriage were used to justify not “biblical marriage” but slavery.

    Yes, the apostle Paul selected same-s3x pairings as one among many possible examples of human sin, but he also assumed that slavery was acceptable and then did nothing to protect slaves from s3x-ual use by their masters, a common practice at the time. Letters attributed to him go so far as to command slaves to obey their masters and women to obey their husbands as if they were obeying Christ.

    These passages served as fundamental proof texts to those who were arguing that slavery was God’s will and accusing abolitionists of failing to obey biblical mandates.

    It is therefore disturbing to hear some Christian leaders today claim that they have no choice but to regard ho-mo-s3x-ual-ity as a sin. They do have a choice and should be held accountable for the ones they are making.

  • We really need to pray for you, Giovanna. You are in mass deception. Exchanging the truth for a BIG lie.

    May God remove the blinders from your eyes and set you free to see His truth.

    GKMN

  • Thank you for your blog. I found your blog while I was listening to you on youtube. Thank you for speaking the truth in love. I am\ still in complete shock. I just found out today! I listened to Jennifer Knapp, in fact I had three of her cds at one time( except her new one) and was ministered to by many her songs. Your blog really helped me process through all this and for that I want to thank you. God bless you!

  • God is so evident in your life. I love the music of Jennifer, and was shocked to find out the news. I watched the interview and wanted to hear you speak more, but sadly they kept cutting you off! Jesus was your mouthpeice. You spoke in LOVE and humility. As soon as you started to speak i looked your name up, I want to go to your church! I want to hear the truth, grounded in the word of God! I feel most people go to the church that tells them what they want to hear, where they aren’t getting the full message! You know you are in the will of the Lord when not everybody every week agrees with everything you say, because God loves, but He also disciplins the ones he loves! I am 20 years old and searching for truth! Keep allowing the Lord to use you in INCREDIBLE WAYS. The Lord is SO pleased with that interview. He is smiling and say “Bob, well done good and faithful servant, you were faithful with little and now you will be in charge of MUCH!” ‘I cant wait to see you in heaven’ is what i said outloud just listening to Jesus speak through you, if I dont find you at your church. I will be praying for your ministry, God is truely with you and your family and is very pleased!

  • Pastor Rusty Watson

    Pastor Bob, I cannot tell you how refreshing it was to watch and listen as you defended our faith and the Word of God! After the other debacles on Larry’s show with people wrestling with their faith or their popularity it was good to know that someone out there still cares to speak the truth in love! Thank you for being passionate as well as articulate!

  • Wow Rusty that truly means alot. Speaking the Truth in Love was my Aim. And we are all so grateful His Word never returns Void. Appreciate the encouragement and pray it would inspire more to stand up and speak the truth. God bless you, pb

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